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Switch to Forum Live View Banning the Burqua in France - Is Sarkozy going too far?
5 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2009 - 6:35PM #21
Ken
Posts: 33,859

Jun 22, 2009 -- 5:33PM, Adelphe wrote:

You're kidding me.  It's a mega-time saver.  Cut (or rip off the top if you're in a hurry), squirt in your condiments (for you, mayonnaise) and stuff everything in.  No muss, no fuss.  Nothing flopping out the sides and nothing to drip on your professorial wide-wale corduroys or tweed jacket.


Actually, I find the contents tend to squirt out, especially when they're goopy Islamic contents.  


(btw, I take it Islamic art doesn't do a thing for you?)


It's pretty and decorative, but that's all you can say for it. It's what Western art would be if all our efforts had gone into designing floor tiles and wallpaper. Trivial. 

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2009 - 6:57PM #22
Adelphe
Posts: 28,744

It's pretty and decorative, but that's all you can say for it. It's what Western art would be if all our efforts had gone into designing floor tiles and wallpaper. Trivial. 


LOL!


What we do without those tiles and wallpaper, though?  And don't arches and beautiful onion domes and such come from them?


What would St. Mark's in Venice look like without an eastern influence?  Surprised


Or the Hagia Sophia?


 

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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5 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2009 - 7:01PM #23
Adelphe
Posts: 28,744

Because the "Hot Topic Zone" has become a place for girls to share recipes, I thought I would post this:


Middle Eastern cuisine is the cuisine of the various countries and peoples of the Middle East. The cuisine of the region is diverse while having a degree of homogeneity. Some commonly used ingredients include olives and olive oil, pitas, honey, sesame seeds, sumac, chickpeas, mint and parsley.  (wiki)


What would we do without those things?


And some of them are combined so lovely...

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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5 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2009 - 8:08PM #24
Agnosticspirit
Posts: 9,244

A, we've got to get you using the quote feature now that it's working again....Smile


Jun 22, 2009 -- 3:17PM, Adelphe wrote:


AS:  That's a debatable opinion rather than a fact....  Many women wear them because they feel pressured to do so.....  Women in the ME wear them because they're treated pretty terribly if they don't...  Since societal mores in Europe and other free countries expect MEN to control themselves and don't burden WOMEN with a male lack of self control, European and western men are generally better behaved than ME Muslim males. Women shouldn't have to succumb to this aspect of Sharia Law in a Pluralistic society in Europe.


Adelphe: We're talking about the West--France.  Most women if they wear one want to.


Do you have any evidence for this? I'm more inclined to think that social pressure  "encourages" women to wear these  restrictive tents rather than desire....


Jun 22, 2009 -- 3:17PM, Adelphe wrote:


AS: We're not talking about crosses, we're talking about a TENT that restricts the movement of a woman..... We're talking about a PRISON.


Adelphe: It's only a "prison" if the woman in it feels it is one.  And even then, she has options to "get out of jail."


See the above.... if women are pressured in their communities to wear a tent, it's a prison. Why should religious practices be allowed to sidestep secular law? Do you think religious mandates should prevent women from receiving education, force them to walk behind the man, and forced to marry whoever is chosen FOR them? Yes....all of this is a prison and when religion is used to fashion that prison rather than embrace a release, it's all the more awful a cage....


Jun 22, 2009 -- 3:17PM, Adelphe wrote:


After we get rid of the crosses, we can strip the nuns of their habits and priests of their frocks.  Be sure to get rid of the kippah, a ghastly sign of submission to God.  No more saris, either.  And while we're at it, no more S&M type clothing--submissive and unequal dog collars and the like.  How about skirts?  Let's outlaw skirts--they say "woman"--how humiliating!


Come on!  You don't see anything wrong with dictating dress in a democracy or republic?



You're being a little alarmist, Adelphe.... I'm aware of the anti-clerical attitude entrenched in France..... with good reason.... but we're not talking about banning a hajib, which is a scarf that covers the hair ... or a cross, which is a piece of jewelry, or even a nun's habit...... none of these articles of religious clothing impede movement as the full on TENT does...  We're talking about an extremely restrictive garment that prevents freedom of movement, must be horribly hot in the summer, and promotes the extremely unhealthy mentality that women must cover themselves up lest Muslim males become so enflamed by desire they'll not be able to keep their hands to themselves. This is a manifestation of lack of assimilation.


We already DO dictate dress to a certain extent.... Nude beaches are the exception, rather than the rule.... We require people to wear shoes and shirts before heading into a restaurant, a store, and mass transportation... (thankfully!) --- Kids in LA can't wear clothing that could be affiliated with gang membership, etc. etc... Our social mores dictate what clothing should be worn depending upon the occasion and the environment......but the national dress code isn't  dicated by a STATE RELIGION; nor should it be.


Jun 22, 2009 -- 3:17PM, Adelphe wrote:


AS:


Nope, she wasn't denied citizenship because she was wearing a burqua... she was denied citizenship because she refused to accept that women are equal in France. She refused to accept the secular laws in France that grant gender equality. She refused to assimilate to the societal, customary and legal mores of her new country. They were right to deny her citizenship.


Adelphe: First, I would like to see the souce backing up your claim.




 


abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?i...


From Fox News: link offers different opinions from Muslims on this matter:


www.foxnews.com/wires/2008Jul16/0,4670,F...


Jun 22, 2009 -- 3:17PM, Adelphe wrote:


Second, what is "refuse to accept that women are equal in France" supposed to imply?


Third, is it that only women who don't wear burqas can be considered equal and not those who choose to?


The woman denied citizenship practiced an extremely radical form of Islam...  women are supposed to submit to the Muslim male, the denial of gender equality and rights for women. That's completely incompatible with secular law in the west (it's a given that some of the fundamentalist Christian sects that still breed in the US --- um, FLDS---- also use religion as a sheild to deny human rights to women and men that don't fit their mold as well)  The burqas aren't necessary in France --- they're a political statement rather than a religious one....  people who won't assimilate, and would eventually opt to subvert their new home to remake it in their own image if we allow our "tolerance" to become so tolerant that our freedoms be used against us....


Imagine a world dominated by Islamic law... No religious freedom..... no freedom of speech... no representative art of living things..... no unapproved music.... No thank you.....


Jun 22, 2009 -- 3:17PM, Adelphe wrote:


Finally, if refusal to "assimilate to the societal, customary, [and legal mores] of her new country" are criterion for being denied entry, then those that came before us and most of us here now should kiss the US goodbye.



If Muslims who emigrate to the US fail to adopt our secular laws, they shouldn't be granted citizenship either. At the very least, most of us will agree that religious freedom, freedom of speech, and other rights granted in the first 10 Amendments should be honored and respected..... even though the last administration made a hash of the 4th, and many groups on both left and right keep trying to tear down our first.

Tribalism, ethnocentricism, racism, nationalism, and FEAR is the Mind Killer... >:(

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2009 - 8:13PM #25
Agnosticspirit
Posts: 9,244

Jun 22, 2009 -- 7:01PM, Adelphe wrote:


Because the "Hot Topic Zone" has become a place for girls to share recipes, I thought I would post this:


Middle Eastern cuisine is the cuisine of the various countries and peoples of the Middle East. The cuisine of the region is diverse while having a degree of homogeneity. Some commonly used ingredients include olives and olive oil, pitas, honey, sesame seeds, sumac, chickpeas, mint and parsley.  (wiki)


What would we do without those things?


And some of them are combined so lovely...



I do love this cuisine..... I make a mean batch of  Tzatziki sauce, but I'll save the recipe for the Chill zone.... factoid I picked up from my heart throb Alton Brown... the kebab was invented as a way to increase the surface of the meat --- the quick cooking required less fuel.

Tribalism, ethnocentricism, racism, nationalism, and FEAR is the Mind Killer... >:(

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2009 - 8:17PM #26
rangerken
Posts: 16,408

In an attempt to get back on topic and off recipes... HINT!!!...


What France decides to do regarding Islamic dress is for France to decide. From what I have read and heard, and am reading and hearing in the French media (et je parle la belle langue avec la facilite) it is apparent that a large majority of Frenchmen and women have had it with the refusal to assimilate by so many Muslim immigrants. What some call islamaphobia is indeed growing, and it is growing fastest in countries where there are large numbers of unassimilating Muslimns... and no wonder.


We Americans can pretty much ignore most shariah idiocy because we're big enough to swamp attempts to bring in medieval islamist stupidity. And we Americans should NOT be in the clothing banning business. But we're not France and we're not French and if the French want to make it impossible for Muslim women to be kept in those ridiculous tents, that is and ouught to be up to the French.


I'm opposed to a similar ban here... mais au mes amis en France, pas de chance!


Ken

Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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5 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2009 - 9:09PM #27
Ken
Posts: 33,859

Jun 22, 2009 -- 6:57PM, Adelphe wrote:

What we do without those tiles and wallpaper, though?  And don't arches and beautiful onion domes and such come from them?


The elements of Islamic architecture are derived from Byzantine and Sassanian Persian models. 


What would St. Mark's in Venice look like without an eastern influence?


The eastern influence on St. Mark's is Byzantine, not Islamic.  


Or the Hagia Sophia?


Hagia Sophia is Byzantine and pre-Islamic.  

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2009 - 9:18PM #28
Ken
Posts: 33,859

Jun 22, 2009 -- 7:01PM, Adelphe wrote:

Middle Eastern cuisine is the cuisine of the various countries and peoples of the Middle East. The cuisine of the region is diverse while having a degree of homogeneity. Some commonly used ingredients include olives and olive oil, pitas, honey, sesame seeds, sumac, chickpeas, mint and parsley.  (wiki)


What would we do without those things?



Italian cuisine uses most of them. Those that the Italians don't use aren't worth having.  

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2009 - 9:29PM #29
Adelphe
Posts: 28,744

Jun 22, 2009 -- 9:09PM, Ken wrote:


Jun 22, 2009 -- 6:57PM, Adelphe wrote:

What we do without those tiles and wallpaper, though?  And don't arches and beautiful onion domes and such come from them?


The elements of Islamic architecture are derived from Byzantine and Sassanian Persian models. 


What would St. Mark's in Venice look like without an eastern influence?


The eastern influence on St. Mark's is Byzantine, not Islamic.  


Or the Hagia Sophia?


Hagia Sophia is Byzantine and pre-Islamic.




Taj Mahal, then.


Come on!  Islam gave us more than chick-peas and terrorism.

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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5 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2009 - 9:46PM #30
Ken
Posts: 33,859

Jun 22, 2009 -- 9:29PM, Adelphe wrote:

Taj Mahal, then.


Overrated. It's not bad, but it pales beside the near-contemporary St. Paul's Cathedral.


Come on!  Islam gave us more than chick-peas and terrorism.



Rugs and brass work.

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