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Switch to Forum Live View Banning the Burqua in France - Is Sarkozy going too far?
5 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2009 - 11:47AM #1
Agnosticspirit
Posts: 9,244

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/eu_france_sarkozy_bu...


Your right to practice your religion ends at the beginning of mine...... Right???? Isn't that the way it should be? In democratic, pluralistic societies, there's a constant tension between the individual's right to practice their religion and secular law... When religious freedom crosses the line that would impact others, or hinder human rights, religious freedom should no longer be used as a magical protective sheild that would prohibit or lessen human and gender rights.... This is it should be....


Exerpt from the article below..... this isn't the first time Sarkozy has lashed out at the full burqua in France. I have to agree with him.... It seems to me the full tent is more of a political statement than it is a religious freedom... given that France is NOT governed by Islamic Law, given that women in France and Europe aren't held responsible for family "honor" and lack of male self-control as it often is in countries dominated by Sharia Law,  why should women be forced to  hide themselves in these cumbersome tents? For religious freedom to exist, there must be some line when religious has to accept, or at the very least tolerate, OTHER practices.... and the SECULAR laws of countries that are NOT run under a theocracy.


"......


"In our country, we cannot accept that women be prisoners behind a screen, cut off from all social life, deprived of all identity," Sarkozy said to extended applause in a speech at the Chateau of Versailles southwest of Paris.


"The burqa is not a religious sign, it's a sign of subservience, a sign of debasement — I want to say it solemnly," he said. "It will not be welcome on the territory of the French Republic...."

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2009 - 12:24PM #2
Ken
Posts: 33,859

France is burdened with a large Muslim population that refuses to assimilate and whose values are inimical to those of the West. If the French are going to deal with this problem, banning burqas will be only the beginning.

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2009 - 12:44PM #3
Adelphe
Posts: 28,727

Yes, he's going too far.  It's Islamophobic in the extreme.


Most women who wear them want to.


Next, the Cross will be considered a symbol (and has been) of female oppression and will be banned.


"...But the movement against the wearing of the burqa has been slowly gathering force in France.


In June 2008, the Council of State - the country's highest administrative court - refused to grant French citizenship to a Moroccan woman wearing a burqa, because it went against "the values of a democratic society and the principle of equality of the sexes."  (AWID)


Ironic, no?

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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5 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2009 - 1:00PM #4
leguru
Posts: 167

It's Islamophobic in the extreme.



Islam does not require the burqua. The political tribal leaders who interpret Islam are the ones who require the burqua. It is not religious, it is political, and Sarkosy has the right, no, the mandate to express what a free society will and will not allow. Three cheers for Sarkosy! Kiss

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2009 - 1:20PM #5
Agnosticspirit
Posts: 9,244

Jun 22, 2009 -- 12:24PM, Ken wrote:


France is burdened with a large Muslim population that refuses to assimilate and whose values are inimical to those of the West. If the French are going to deal with this problem, banning burqas will be only the beginning.




 I completely agree, Ken.... a group of people are refusing to assimilate... their religious practices conflict with secular law..... especially when these religious practices prohibit gender equality.... I think Sarkozy is on the right track and hope Americans will remember this when American Muslims start running around in tents, preventing women from traveling alone and discouraging education for FEMALES.....


 

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2009 - 1:28PM #6
Agnosticspirit
Posts: 9,244

Jun 22, 2009 -- 12:44PM, Adelphe wrote:


Yes, he's going too far.  It's Islamophobic in the extreme.


How do you define Islamophobic? This has many different meanings. Some define Islamophobia as anyone who criticizes their religion, while others more correctly define Islamophobia as those who criticize aspects of their religion that woud PROHIBIT human rights to religious freedom and gender equality. I tend to fall in the latter category.....


Jun 22, 2009 -- 12:44PM, Adelphe wrote:


Most women who wear them want to.


That's a debatable opinion rather than a fact....  Many women wear them because they feel pressured to do so.....  Women in the ME wear them because they're treated pretty terribly if they don't...  Since societal mores in Europe and other free countries expect MEN to control themselves and don't burden WOMEN with a male lack of self control, European and western men are generally better behaved than ME Muslim males. Women shouldn't have to succumb to this aspect of Sharia Law in a Pluralistic society in Europe.


Jun 22, 2009 -- 12:44PM, Adelphe wrote:


Next, the Cross will be considered a symbol (and has been) of female oppression and will be banned.


We're not talking about crosses, we're talking about a TENT that restricts the movement of a woman..... We're talking about a PRISON.


Jun 22, 2009 -- 12:44PM, Adelphe wrote:


"...But the movement against the wearing of the burqa has been slowly gathering force in France.


In June 2008, the Council of State - the country's highest administrative court - refused to grant French citizenship to a Moroccan woman wearing a burqa, because it went against "the values of a democratic society and the principle of equality of the sexes."  (AWID)


Ironic, no?



Nope, she wasn't denied citizenship because she was wearing a burqua... she was denied citizenship because she refused to accept that women are equal in France. She refused to accept the secular laws in France that grant gender equality. She refused to assimilate to the societal, customary and legal mores of her new country. They were right to deny her citizenship.

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2009 - 1:33PM #7
Ken
Posts: 33,859

Jun 22, 2009 -- 12:44PM, Adelphe wrote:


Yes, he's going too far.  It's Islamophobic in the extreme.



There's nothing wrong with being Islamophobic. Islam is a scary religion. It destroys civilization. You may have noticed that Muslims who brag about the glorious achievements of Islamic civilization rarely mention anything more recent than the thirteenth century. What happened? Given a choice between civilization and religious orthodoxy, they chose the latter and descended into semi-barbarism.  

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2009 - 1:38PM #8
Agnosticspirit
Posts: 9,244

Jun 22, 2009 -- 1:00PM, leguru wrote:


It's Islamophobic in the extreme.



Islam does not require the burqua. The political tribal leaders who interpret Islam are the ones who require the burqua. It is not religious, it is political, and Sarkosy has the right, no, the mandate to express what a free society will and will not allow. Three cheers for Sarkosy!



Hello leguru, how are you? Whether the burqua is required or not is a pretty contentious topic among Muslims.... Some Muslims claim that "covering your adornments" was only meant for the wives of Muhammad..... others believe a scarf is sufficient, while others think women are supposed to walk around in a tent, as if they had something to be ashamed of.



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5 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2009 - 1:46PM #9
Ken
Posts: 33,859

Jun 22, 2009 -- 1:20PM, Agnosticspirit wrote:

I completely agree, Ken.... a group of people are refusing to assimilate...


And it isn't just that they refuse to assimilate. If that were all, they might be tolerated in much the same way as we tolerate the Amish. But they aren't content to be separate from the mainstream of their host society. They want to change the host society. They hope to achieve through underhanded means what their ancestors failed to achieve through direct means in the eighth century - the conquest of Europe.  

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2009 - 1:54PM #10
Agnosticspirit
Posts: 9,244

Jun 22, 2009 -- 1:46PM, Ken wrote:


Jun 22, 2009 -- 1:20PM, Agnosticspirit wrote:

I completely agree, Ken.... a group of people are refusing to assimilate...


And it isn't just that they refuse to assimilate. If that were all, they might be tolerated in much the same way as we tolerate the Amish. But they aren't content to be separate from the mainstream of their host society. They want to change the host society. They hope to achieve through underhanded means what their ancestors failed to achieve through direct means in the eighth century - the conquest of Europe.



Spot on target, Ken...... if some of thereligious practices don't frighten a free people, the lack of recognition for the Separation of Church and State, religious freedom, freedom of speech certainly SHOULD.


Fortunately, there ARE progressive Muslims who have been "corrupted" Smile by the West and want no part of Islamic Law in the public sphere.... These groups of westernized Muslims can be and are compatible with life in a pluralistic society... the more conventional, traditional Muslims are another matter entirely....


 

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