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Flag Merope June 5, 2009 2:12 PM EDT

"To this day there are those who insist that the Holocaust never happened, a denial of fact and truth that is baseless and ignorant and hateful," the President said, as he laid a single white rose at a memorial for the dead at the former Buchenwald concentration camp.  Obama was accompanied by Nobel Peace laureate Elie Wiesel (a Holocaust survivor) and German Chancellor Merkel.  Story here.


Obama further said that Buchenwald was the "ultimate rebuke" to those who deny or seek to minimize the Holocaust.


He said, "These sights have not lost their horror with the passage of time."  He also said, "More than half a century later, our grief and our outrage over what happened have not diminished.  I will not forget what I have seen here today."


As it happens, Obama's great-uncle helped liberate Ohrdruf, which was a sub-camp of Buchenwald.


 

Flag Ironhold June 5, 2009 3:07 PM EDT

And yet, as the St. Petersburg (Florida) Times notes, he completely failed to keep his promise to recognize the Armenian Genocide.


Plus, how's about the government recognize some institutional bigotry and even genocide that took place here on US soil? Everyone knows about what happened to the Native Americans and is vaguely aware of what some of the assorted immigrants went through, but few people like to discuss things like the Japanese internment camps of WWII and fewer still like to talk about such things as Haun's Mill.

Flag LeahOne June 5, 2009 7:13 PM EDT

Ironwood, how intriguing that you'd cite Haun's Mill - and leave out Rosewood, or the persecution of Amish and Mennonite boys jailed for being CO's in WW1 .......


 

Flag Ironhold June 6, 2009 1:11 PM EDT

Jun 5, 2009 -- 7:13PM, LeahOne wrote:


Ironwood, how intriguing that you'd cite Haun's Mill - and leave out Rosewood, or the persecution of Amish and Mennonite boys jailed for being CO's in WW1 .......


 




I just typed what came to mind first.


Nothing more, nothing less.


 


Yet the point is that there are many, many atrocities even in America that need to be recognized - Haun's Mill; the persecution of JWs, Amish, and Mennonites for being COs; the Japanese internment camps - that people don't want to talk about because it would force them to actually discuss the unpleasant side of American history and that some of the "politically incorrect" groups here in the US suffered as well.

Flag li47 June 6, 2009 1:46 PM EDT

Ironhold, interesting that the Mountain Meadows Massacre didn't "come to mind", considering that the loss of life in that incident was far greater than any of the incidents that did "come to mind."

Flag Ironhold June 6, 2009 2:08 PM EDT

Jun 6, 2009 -- 1:46PM, li47 wrote:


Ironhold, interesting that the Mountain Meadows Massacre didn't "come to mind", considering that the loss of life in that incident was far greater than any of the incidents that did "come to mind."




MMM was in retaliation for Haun's Mill.


Thing is, critics of the LDS faith would rather focus on the former and dismiss the latter outright.


Never mind the fact that without the latter, the former may well have not occured.


You see, Li, history rarely happens in a vaccuum. Even seemingly random events quite often have chains leading up to them, such that an honest scholar or historian*can pick things apart.


For example, had the Allied Powers offered more lenient terms to Kaiser Wilhelm at the end of World War I, World War II would likely not have taken place. The Allied Powers insisted upon Germany making war reparations, something that the drained and battered nation could not do. This caused Germany's economy to bottom out, with "bottom" being "what we see in modern-day Zimbabwe." This economic disaster caused people to form the National Socialist (Nazi) party, which the unemployed Hitler would later join. Enough people were affected by the bad economy for the Nazi party to become a significant political minority, forcing Otto Von Bismarck to take Hitler on board as his #2 after a round of national elections as Von Bismarck felt the need to form a political coalition. When Von Bismarck died in office, Hitler instantly became Chancelor of Germany. When Hitler gave the masses an economic stimulus package, his status as Fuerher was sealed.


See what I mean?


 


 


*To be blunt here, "honest scholar & historian" and "critic of the LDS faith" are virtually incompatible owing to just how much historical distortion there has been over the past 100+ years.

Flag Verdugo June 6, 2009 2:27 PM EDT

Jun 6, 2009 -- 2:08PM, Ironhold wrote:


Jun 6, 2009 -- 1:46PM, li47 wrote:


Ironhold, interesting that the Mountain Meadows Massacre didn't "come to mind", considering that the loss of life in that incident was far greater than any of the incidents that did "come to mind."




MMM was in retaliation for Haun's Mill.


Thing is, critics of the LDS faith would rather focus on the former and dismiss the latter outright.


Never mind the fact that without the latter, the former may well have not occured.


You see, Li, history rarely happens in a vaccuum. Even seemingly random events quite often have chains leading up to them, such that an honest scholar or historian*can pick things apart.


For example, had the Allied Powers offered more lenient terms to Kaiser Wilhelm at the end of World War I, World War II would likely not have taken place. The Allied Powers insisted upon Germany making war reparations, something that the drained and battered nation could not do. This caused Germany's economy to bottom out, with "bottom" being "what we see in modern-day Zimbabwe." This economic disaster caused people to form the National Socialist (Nazi) party, which the unemployed Hitler would later join. Enough people were affected by the bad economy for the Nazi party to become a significant political minority, forcing Otto Von Bismarck to take Hitler on board as his #2 after a round of national elections as Von Bismarck felt the need to form a political coalition. When Von Bismarck died in office, Hitler instantly became Chancelor of Germany. When Hitler gave the masses an economic stimulus package, his status as Fuerher was sealed.


See what I mean?


 


 


*To be blunt here, "honest scholar & historian" and "critic of the LDS faith" are virtually incompatible owing to just how much historical distortion there has been over the past 100+ years.




 


While I actually agree with all of the above, the final statement is a bit ironic, given that NO ONE is better at historical revisionism than the LDS.

Flag li47 June 6, 2009 2:36 PM EDT

You see, Li, history rarely happens in a vaccuum.



Umm, yeah, I believe that's fairly self evident. But thanks for letting me know that you're also aware of that fact.


In  any case, I still find it interesting that MMM didn't "come to mind" when you posted your list, given the greater magnitude of that event as opposed to the others.

Flag Ironhold June 6, 2009 3:20 PM EDT

Jun 6, 2009 -- 2:36PM, li47 wrote:


You see, Li, history rarely happens in a vaccuum.



Umm, yeah, I believe that's fairly self evident. But thanks for letting me know that you're also aware of that fact.


In  any case, I still find it interesting that MMM didn't "come to mind" when you posted your list, given the greater magnitude of that event as opposed to the others.




MMM is plastered all over the media by critics of the church who want to scare people and make them think that all Mormons are would-be mass murderers.


Not once do any of them actually admit that MMM was done by a single band of people and performed in retaliation for 25+ years of equally heinous actions done against Mormons.


Hence why things like Haun's Mill need to be remembered as well.

Flag li47 June 6, 2009 4:29 PM EDT

Hence why things like Haun's Mill need to be remembered as well.



Granted.


However, I don't think I have said that Haun's Mill or similar events shouldn't be remembered. I simply found it interesting that you chose not to include in your list of events that "came to mind" the MMM, which as I opined before was of much greater magnitude in terms of number of lives taken than any of the things you did choose to include in your list of atrocities committed in America.


And of course, as reprehensible as any of the American events described were, IMO they pale in comparison to the Holocaust of the Second World War.

Flag Stardove June 6, 2009 7:01 PM EDT

Jun 5, 2009 -- 2:12PM, Merope wrote:


"To this day there are those who insist that the Holocaust never happened, a denial of fact and truth that is baseless and ignorant and hateful," the President said, as he laid a single white rose at a memorial for the dead at the former Buchenwald concentration camp.  Obama was accompanied by Nobel Peace laureate Elie Wiesel (a Holocaust survivor) and German Chancellor Merkel.  Story here.


Obama further said that Buchenwald was the "ultimate rebuke" to those who deny or seek to minimize the Holocaust.


He said, "These sights have not lost their horror with the passage of time."  He also said, "More than half a century later, our grief and our outrage over what happened have not diminished.  I will not forget what I have seen here today."


As it happens, Obama's great-uncle helped liberate Ohrdruf, which was a sub-camp of Buchenwald.


 




In case anyone has forgotten the topic of this thread it is quoted above.  Surprised


DRESDEN, Germany — President Obama on Friday intensified his pledge to unlock the Middle East stalemate, sending an envoy next week to pursue his call for a two-state solution, as he toured a former concentration camp that he said served as a lesson to “be ever-vigilant about the spread of evil in our own time.”

Flag rangerken June 6, 2009 10:17 PM EDT

Iron, the Kaiser had abdicated before the end of WW1, Bismark was long dead before 1900!!!, and the rest of your history leaves a lot to be desired. If you're going to support your opinions with history please at least get the history right!


And NOTHING mentioned by others in a really dumb attempt to hijack the thread topic, comes close to Hitler's holocaust against the Jews.


Obama did precisely the right thing and his words are both eloquesnt and on target... and I am NOT an Obama supporter. But when he does us American proud, as he has done the past several days, he damn well deserves credit for it!


Ken

Flag appy20 June 8, 2009 12:05 PM EDT

I don't think we are in denial about what was done to Native Americans or to Japanese Americans.  At least, I was taught about it in school and the teaching was definitely critical of the US. The sadness, the horror was not spared my class.  We weren't in denial back then.


The thing about the Holocaust is that what has historically been done to Jews was just an ongoing  historical terror.  In the Middle Ages, they were routinely tortured in the most horrible ways and they were blamed for the Black Plague and tortured, executed in the most horrific manner. Males were hung with weights hung on their testicles.  That kind of thing.  All this bizarre cruelty was inflicted on these people and replicated in the death camps of the Nazis.  What is wrong with people?  People seem to have all this evil bubbling just under the surface and let there be a crisis, people turn into monsters.   The really horrifying thing is that it takes a lot of people going along with this stuff  to accomplish this horror.


It seems like during many historical crises, Jewish people were scapegoats.  So, much of it was done in the name of Christianity that I am not sure I consider Christianity a valid religion.   There is too much hate bubbling under the surface.  It almost seems, if you look at the history, as if it were the work of Satan and not Jesus.  That stuff was real. I will have to look up the number the numbers of Jewish folks tortured, it was an unbelievable number.  That kind of horror on such a large scale.  If that isn't evil, I don't know what is.  That makes the average psychopath look like a saint.


 

Flag LeahOne June 8, 2009 11:43 PM EDT

Perhaps this is slightly off topic - but I found Ironhold's sympathy for 'tweenwar' Germany quite distasteful. 


There seems little doubt that Germany was the aggressor in 1914 - so why shouldn't they have paid reparations?


And the use of German materiel in the Spanish civil war during the '30's rather puts the lie to 'poor prostrate Germany', I feel - how much 'butter' could all those guns have bought?  Not to mention that such activity was designed to circumvent the sanctions placed on Germany - and of course it also puts the lie to any fiction that Germany's leaders(Hitler & Co) were 'provoked' into embarking upon an attempt at world domination....


It always leaves me wondering whenever someone tries to 'balance' one of these discussions.  *sigh!*  At least we've so far been spared the revisionists who want to deny that thousands of German citizens (and some 'fellow travelers' in other nations!) enthusiastically participated in an attempt to wipe out a religion and a people. 


Maybe some day Obama will apologize for the State Dep'ts deliberate efforts to thwart the attempts by US citizens to get exit visas for their relatives in Germany and other Nazi-occupied lands?  

Flag Merope June 21, 2009 2:27 AM EDT

This thread was moved from the Hot Topics Zone.


Note that while a relaxed (site-wide) ROC standard applied to the discussion on that forum, the tighter forum ROCs -- together with all posting guidelines for this forum -- apply to discussion on this thread from this point forward.



Merope
Beliefnet Community Host
Hot Topics Zone

Flag arielg June 27, 2009 9:03 PM EDT

Yet the point is that there are many, many atrocities even in America that need to be recognized - Haun's Mill; the persecution of JWs, Amish, and Mennonites for being COs; the Japanese internment camps - that people don't want to talk about because it would force them to actually discuss the unpleasant side of American history and that some of the "politically incorrect" groups here in the US suffered as well.


 


It may have something to do with the way Ariel Sharon saw it:


“Don't worry about American pressure on Israel, we, the Jewish people control America, and the Americans know it.”


 

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