Hi there!

I'm new here, well I've been lurking for some time but this is my first post. Well, lets just jump to the point right away. This is probably going to be rather long anyway.

Recently, in the "miracles happen!" thread on the science and religion board, iamachildofhis posted one of the rather silly and childish stories one hears from time to time that are supposed to prove that miracles actually happen. In this story he told about an university student who passed a test because god showed him the answers in a dream. Some of the atheists were rather amused about this and pointed out how strange it was that the author of all morality should stoop to cheating on a test, while some of the Christians in the thread couldn't see how it was cheating at all. And here is the problem. Of course it is cheating!

If we switch the details of the story around but a little, so that it wasn't god who gave the guy the answers in a dream but maybe a friend who had access to the questions that were about to be asked and let the protagonist of the story have a glimpse, pretty much everybody would surely agree that it was cheating and thus morally wrong. So here is an act that would be judged as immoral under any circumstances except for the one that god committed/approved it. This of course goes much farther than the simple matter of cheating on a test. As has been pointed out again and again, the bible describes numerous atrocities, from rape and murder to the wholesale slaughter of entire cities, genocide and, to top it all off, the drowning of almost all of humankind that could not possibly under any circumstance be described as anything like good, kind, loving or just were it not for the fact that they happened because god willed it.

The reasoning behind this is obviously: We feeble humans cannot decide what's moral, right or wrong for ourselves but god is perfect, he is absolutely good and moral, so whatever he does, whatever conforms with his will, it is good and moral also. Conversely god is not good, kind, loving, moral and just because he does good, kind, loving, moral and just things. Rather are those things by definition good, kind, loving, moral and just because he does them. This is of course a textbook example of circular reasoning. However the really bad thing here is not a little logical inconsistency but that it makes all those words utterly meaningless. Absolutely everything, even the greatest atrocities can suddenly  be called loving, just, whatever as long one claims it is gods will that is done. And history shows that is exactly what happens.

I have to clarify here, it's not Christians or even theists I'm attacking here, it's a way of thinking that I find is very common with theists but far from exclusive. Especially in the 20th century there have been many non-theistic ideologies guilty of the same thing. It doesn't matter what you call your highest moral authority, may it be god, the fuehrer, dear leader or whatever it's all the same thing. I'm willing to bet that at the root of every great atrocity in history you find lots of people who in false humility say "who are we to judge, our dear, great whatever surely knows best".

Still, this is a message board that deals mainly with religion and it seems to me that one has to think this way if one believes in a highest moral authority that is supposedly omniscient, omnipotent and on top of that perfectly just loving and so on.

So I ask the theists: Am I totally wrong here? - if so, why? How do you deal with this problem? What does right or wrong really mean to you? And is it written down in an old book to stand forever or can/should it change in time? Can we make progress in this field?

Answer any or all of these questions or address what I've said however you see fit. I hope for a fruitful debate.

I'd have to agree with Tolerant Sis here. For morality to have any meaning, it can't be something you can get out of or switch around with a high enough rank, even a divine one. One of the reasons I don't follow the God of Abraham is that I believe He is a immoral and unjust in how he is presented in a variety of scriptures and I have a moral obligation to oppose Him for it. And if He's not as He's described in such books, the He can't really claim to be the same God.

~Stalker

topfengolatsche wrote:

In this story he told about an university student who passed a test because god showed him the answers in a dream. Some of the atheists were rather amused about this and pointed out how strange it was that the author of all morality should stoop to cheating on a test, while some of the Christians in the thread couldn't see how it was cheating at all. And here is the problem. Of course it is cheating!

If we switch the details of the story around but a little, so that it wasn't god who gave the guy the answers in a dream but maybe a friend who had access to the questions that were about to be asked and let the protagonist of the story have a glimpse, pretty much everybody would surely agree that it was cheating and thus morally wrong.

The trouble here as I see it is you have not switch details, but rather rewrote the story!

If the protagonist hires a tutor, who gets him to memorize certain facts, by presenting them in a memorial way almost no one would see anything wrong...

topfengolatsche wrote:

So I ask the theists: Am I totally wrong here?

Yes

topfengolatsche wrote:

- if so, why?

See above.

wow, you're really thinking  *

this is just my suggestion; it could possibly ease your mind a little and offer some "closure" to the more confusing aspects. 

thought:

instead of looking at the relationship as a "circular theology" ; why not just focus on your relationship with God.  In all circumstances do what feels right to you and allow God to worry about the corrections he needs to make in others lives.  You might be looking at the whole concept from an "all knowing" standpoint.  But I don't believe you really feel that you know everything ; you're just standing & viewing things from the wrong angle.  Look at God ; as though he is The Father in your family.  You know as a child that no matter what you say, you are never going to be the final judge in deciding the punishments or lack there of in your siblings.  It's not entirely that simple; but I hope it's a start in a more understanding direction to get to know God.  Keep asking questions ..... really, they can only lead to answers  *

God Bless * 

If faith isn't subjective, nothing is.