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6 years ago  ::  Feb 12, 2008 - 8:42AM #1
ceveazey
Posts: 357
[QUOTE=steven_guy;281063]More music I like on my profile. If any of you liked the music I posted on my profile, I posted another three tracks by Heinrich Ignaz Franz von Biber, Giovanni Gabrieli and Michael Praetorius.

I'd made full performing scores of most of these works.[/QUOTE]


I wish I could hear the music, but DANG my audio was not hooked up by the tech who set me up, and I don't know how to do it.  Anyway, you are a musician?  What instrument to you play?
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 12, 2008 - 9:43PM #2
Ken
Posts: 33,859

steven_guy wrote:

I hope some of you enjoy this music, composed in a time when music for the church was actually good and free of nuns with guitars!

Hmmph. I'm not sure that I care for this newfangled church music with instruments. Dear old Josquin managed quite nicely without all that banging, tootling, and scraping of cat's guts, and if it was good enough for Josquin, it's good enough for me.

Of course, I'm really enjoying it. For almost two weeks now I've been listening to nothing but Baroque opera and my ears need a good cleaning out.

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 13, 2008 - 8:02AM #3
Adelphe
Posts: 28,705

Ken wrote:

Hmmph. I'm not sure that I care for this newfangled church music with instruments. Dear old Josquin managed quite nicely without all that banging, tootling, and scraping of cat's guts, and if it was good enough for Josquin, it's good enough for me.



Why, you'd make a fine, upstanding congregant in the Church of Christ:

"...No evidence exists that first-century churches used instruments in worship; nor did the observant synagogues. Furthermore, all New Testament Scripture references to worshiping God in song never mention instruments. Only the voice, heart, and spirit are mentioned in commands to worship by singing. Therefore, Churches of Christ have adhered to the practice of a cappella music in worship. It is often pointed out that, throughout church history, instrumental music in worship was not practiced until the sixth century, hence the Latin/Italian word "a cappella", meaning like the chapel/church.

The level of conviction regarding a cappella-only worship varies from church to church. To some the practice is a preference, a good interpretation, or an embraced tradition but is not binding on others because there is no command in Scripture that forbids instruments in worship. To others, the use of instruments in worship would equate with adding to the Bible since instruments are not mentioned, making the a cappella practice a strong matter of doctrine or dogma within that congregation..." (wikipedia)

Instruments are of the devil.  :)

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 13, 2008 - 8:02AM #4
Adelphe
Posts: 28,705

Ken wrote:

Hmmph. I'm not sure that I care for this newfangled church music with instruments. Dear old Josquin managed quite nicely without all that banging, tootling, and scraping of cat's guts, and if it was good enough for Josquin, it's good enough for me.



Why, you'd make a fine, upstanding congregant in the Church of Christ:

"...No evidence exists that first-century churches used instruments in worship; nor did the observant synagogues. Furthermore, all New Testament Scripture references to worshiping God in song never mention instruments. Only the voice, heart, and spirit are mentioned in commands to worship by singing. Therefore, Churches of Christ have adhered to the practice of a cappella music in worship. It is often pointed out that, throughout church history, instrumental music in worship was not practiced until the sixth century, hence the Latin/Italian word "a cappella", meaning like the chapel/church.

The level of conviction regarding a cappella-only worship varies from church to church. To some the practice is a preference, a good interpretation, or an embraced tradition but is not binding on others because there is no command in Scripture that forbids instruments in worship. To others, the use of instruments in worship would equate with adding to the Bible since instruments are not mentioned, making the a cappella practice a strong matter of doctrine or dogma within that congregation..." (wikipedia)

Instruments are of the devil.  :)

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 13, 2008 - 4:40PM #5
ceveazey
Posts: 357
[QUOTE=steven_guy;283790]A pity! The "Sonata sopra Dulcis Jesu patris imago à 20 voci" by Giovanni Gabrieli is an impressive and moving work. It is a vast score and it must have sounded like nothing anyone had ever heard before when it rang out through the cathedral of St. Mark's in Venice around 1600. The work is a strange one - it is an ensemble 'sonata' and the work could be performed without any voices at all [Claudio Monteverdi also wrote a "sonata con voce" - the famous "Sonata sopra Sancta Maria ora pro nobis à 8" from the Vespro della Beata Vergine, 1610]. The work features 4 cornetts*, 2 violas, 10 trombones and three organs. Two tenor soloists are hear throughout most of the sonata, singing the text over the large contingent of instruments. It has a certain Islamic quality to it. You may know that Venice was "the gateway to the East" - the "porta orientalis" of Monteverdi's Vespro della Beata Vergine of 1610 - and that the calls to prayer must have been heard at various times of the day in the streets of Venice, which was a liberal and multicultural city and Jews and Muslims were free to practice their faiths there at that time. Gabrieli's work is like a painting of a garden where Mohammed had walked... ... but it also represents Mannerism in music at the end of Renaissance.
Note, at the end of "Dulcis Jesu", you hear the full choir come in, which would have been originally sung by the Cappella Maricana - the choir of St. Mark's. This choir consisted of around twenty men. No female voices, boys or castrati. The soprano and alto lines were sung by falsettists (countertenors). In the recording I posted all adult male voices were used - from soprano to bass. You will hear that the choir has a slightly strange and unearthly sound as a consequence. The cornetti and tromboni blend particularly well with this kind of choir.


Claudio Monteverdi seems to tipped his hat to Islamic music in the aforementioned Vesperæ of 1610 - in the concerto "Duo Seraphim clamabant, à due voci: à tre voci" and in the motet "Audi coelum, Prima ad una voce sola, poi nella fina à 6 voci". "Duo Seraphim" features the words "Two seraphim called to one another: Holy, Holy is the Lord God of Hosts, The whole earth is full of his glory". The work plays on this text and has three tenors [the third tenor comes in on the words "Tre sunt" - clever, huh?!], each accompanied by a chitarrone, in different locations in the cathedral - the style of the music is a little bizarre and it does evoke, for me, the Islamic "call to prayer". As does "Audi coelum" ["Hear Heaven, hear my word"], which features two tenors "in Echo" [the second tenor echoes the primary singer in a different location in the cathedral], the words being a love song to the Blessed Virgin, yet also a none to subtle reference to Venice, herself, the "gateway to the East".  I'll upload recordings of these two pieces soon so you can hear them yourself, if you get near a computer that can handle such things.

* I am a player of the cornett [id est: cornetto, cornetta, cornet à bouquin or Zink]. Look up the instrument on the Wikipedia if you're not sure what I am talking about. I wrote part of the article, as well as complete articles on the cornettino and tenor cornett on the Wikipedia.[/QUOTE]


Hi Steven,

Well I'm pleasantly surprised. Your writing sounds like some of the music classes I had to take when a music major where you have to evaluate a piece of music.  Wow that was my worst class.  Anybody who thinks a music major is easy better think again.  It was much harder than any other major.  I sampled around a little, went from psychology to biology to music. back to psychology and over to consciousness studies at the university.  Of the three, the music major was the hardest.  I'm a classical violinist, taught, played symphony, was a street performer when I needed cash in a pinch, played celtic later, did a lot of fun things.

Anyway, thanks for giving me some of the sonatas, I wrote them down.  The Music Department at California (at Davis) has a good Saturday morning radio disk jockey who will go out of his way to find music for listeners.  I had no idea Monteverdi had respect for Islamic music.  Speaking of my own instrument, when I hear a violinist playing the hell out of a Stradivarius, it really physically hurts me, makes me cringe.  Those beautiful instruments were not intended to be played at such a volume.  I sometimes think it internally damages them; the wood may not be able to stand that powerful volume/frequency.

I know of cornetts but not much.  I'll go take a look at Wiki what you wrote.  Thanks!!
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 13, 2008 - 5:22PM #6
Ken
Posts: 33,859

Adelphe wrote:

Instruments are of the devil.

I'm quite fond of instruments. For many years I associated "a capella" with the horrors of congregational hymn singing and high school choirs performing over-arranged versions of "I Enjoy Being a Girl."

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 13, 2008 - 6:21PM #7
ceveazey
Posts: 357
[QUOTE=steven_guy;286864]I posted those Monteverdi excerpts from Vespro della Beata Vergine (1610), namely:
I. Versiculus & Responsorium: Deus in adiutorium / Domine ad adiuvandum.
VII. Concerto: Duo Seraphim clamabant à due voci ... à tre voci.
IX. Concerto: Audi coelum: prima ad una voca sola, poi nella fine à 6 voci.

I hope you get a feel for the drama in this music recorded in St. Mark's itself - a building that seems to have a drama of its own. For anyone who has been there, the Islamic elements are obvious - various treasures plundered from Constantinople are evident. If you watch the DVD of the Vespers made by John Eliot Gardiner and his Monteverdi Choir, you will get an even more vivid impression of the subtle "call to prayer" aspects of this work.

I also added three works by Heinrich Schütz (1585 - 1672):
Ist nicht Ephraim mein teurer Sohn? SWV 40 - from the great Psalmen Davids of 1619
Saul, Saul, was verfolgst du mich? SWV 415 - from the collection Symphoniæ Sacræ III of 1650
Auf dem Gebirge hat man ein Geschrei gehöret SWV 396 - from Geistliche Chormusik of 1648

All three are very powerful and emotional works and are amongst my favourite pieces of music.

The texts and music are perfectly matched. Ist nicht Ephraim mein teurer Sohn? features two soloists - a soprano (female) and alto (male) each 'embedded' in a cloud of trombones and cornetts. Like a mother and father, the engage in a poignant dialogue about their lost child. One can feel their pain. Then, towards the end, four choirs come in! - in "surround sound" - perhaps representing the voice of God? - to comfort them.

The text:

Ist nicht Ephraim mein teurer Sohn und mein trautes Kind? Denn ich gedenk noch wohl daran, was ich ihm geredet habe. Darum bricht mir mein Herz gegen ihn, daß ich mich sein erbarmen muß, spricht der Herr.

"Is Ephraim my dear son? Is he a pleasant child? For since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: Therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the Lord."

Auf dem Gebirge hat man ein Geschrei gehöret features two alto soloists (Michael Chance and Ashley Stafford on my recording), five trombones and contrabass violone. The two male voices 'float' above a very dark cloud (or should I say mountain range?) of trombones.
Again, the text deals with tragic loss:

Text:

Auf dem Gebirge hat man ein Geschrei gehöret, viel Klagens, Wienens und Heulens; Rachel beweinete ihre Kinder und wollt sich nicht trösten lassen, denn es war aus mit ihnen.

"In the mountains there was a voice heard, lamentations and weeping and great mourning; Rachel weeping for her children would not be comforted, because they were no more."

Saul, Saul, was verfolgst du mich? is probably one of the most dramatic works of Schütz and it shows polychoral music at boiling point. The work features a group of soloists - the "Favoriti" - 2 sopranos, countertenor, tenor and 2 basses (who we hear raising up out of the depths at the start of the piece); two "cappella" vocal choirs (SATB/SATB); 2 solo violins; 2 cornetts and 6 trombones, 'cello, contrabass, lute and organ.
If you can, listen to the work in stereo, to get the full effect of the angry exchanges between the choirs.

The text:

Saul, Saul, was verfolgst du mich? Es wird dir schwer werden, wider den Stachel zu löcken.

"Saul, Saul, why dost thou persecute me? It will be hard for thee to kick against the pricks."


[Sorry if my German has failed at any time here, it is not my best language!][/QUOTE]


Thank you Steven for typing all of this.  Do you know if I can purchase any of these on CD anywhere; do you  have a website where I can order any of these?

Christine
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 13, 2008 - 7:56PM #8
ceveazey
Posts: 357
[QUOTE=steven_guy;286888]I forgot to add that the young Heinrich Schütz studied under the great Giovanni Gabrieli. Gabrieli must have had a great affection for his most talented student and he bequeathed him his signet ring on his deathbed. Schütz, a protestant (a Lutheran, in fact), clearly cared for his great teacher and even extreme old age, he still mentioned his beloved Ioannis Gabriel in his writings.
Giovanni Gabrieli had the young Schütz lead the choir and orchestra of St. Mark's when Gabrieli was ill. Quite amazing to think of a young Lutheran leading this great Catholic musical institution! Maybe this has something to do with the liberality of Venice at the time?[/QUOTE]


Could be the liberality, and could be that there were no other qualified people to lead the choir?  Giovanni's request for Heinrich must have been listened to by the Papacy.  What would the Papacy know about music and who to hire?  This is a great story about Heinrich and Gabrieli, and frankly you tell it in such a way that it is like being there.  Because musicians are such feeling people, their lives are very interesting to know about.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 13, 2008 - 7:59PM #9
ceveazey
Posts: 357
[QUOTE=steven_guy;286921]Thanks for your reply and comments, Christine.
http://www.amazon.com/Schutz-Concertos- … 851&sr=1-1

That is the link to the Schütz.

http://www.amazon.com/Buxtehude-Membra- … 851&sr=1-2 

["O bone Jesu" comes from the above recording - Buxtehude is fabulous and moving, too. Essential music!]

The Gardiner recordings of the Vespro della Beata Vergine [Vespers of the Blessed Virgin] 1610:

The CD:
http://www.amazon.com/Monteverdi-Vespro … 127&sr=1-1
The DVD:
http://www.amazon.com/Monteverdi-Vespro … 264&sr=1-1
[ignore the negative reviews]


The only recording of Giovanni Gabrieli's music you'll ever need!
http://www.amazon.com/Gabrieli-Montever … 67&sr=1-12

Or this one! ;-))
http://www.amazon.com/Venetian-Coronati … 477&sr=1-1

[It electified me in the early 1990s! And it still gives me goose pimples!]

I hope this helps?

Steven[/QUOTE]


Yeah great, it helps!  I have got this printed, THANKS!
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 13, 2008 - 8:14PM #10
Adelphe
Posts: 28,705

Ken wrote:

I'm quite fond of instruments. For many years I associated "a capella" with the horrors of congregational hymn singing and high school choirs performing over-arranged versions of "I Enjoy Being a Girl."



LOL!!! (to the latter.)

What is horrific in hymns?

They are timeless.

Some of the best tunes ever.

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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