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Switch to Forum Live View Mohammad = the Messiah?
2 years ago  ::  Mar 21, 2012 - 12:35AM #1
Dudette
Posts: 137
Hello again!

Do you consider Mohammad to be the Messiah prophetized by the Hebrew scriptures?
I'm asking because Jesus sure seems to fit the description of the prophecies.
I would like your thoughts on this.

Thank you for your help...Dudette
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 24, 2012 - 12:22PM #2
visio
Posts: 3,229

Mar 21, 2012 -- 12:35AM, Dudette wrote:

Hello again!

Do you consider Mohammad to be the Messiah prophetized by the Hebrew scriptures?
I'm asking because Jesus sure seems to fit the description of the prophecies.
I would like your thoughts on this.

Thank you for your help...Dudette



What is messiah, by the way?

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 26, 2012 - 5:03AM #3
Miraj
Posts: 5,020

No, Muhammad (pbuh) is a man, a special man, but a man, not the Messiah.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  Mar 26, 2012 - 10:10AM #4
Dudette
Posts: 137

Hello again Miraj!


Who do Muslims think the Messiah of the Hebrew Scriptures is?

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 07, 2012 - 11:09PM #5
visio
Posts: 3,229

Well, I just found an idea spelled out in DJ board by a poster, roughly what the Jew means by their Messiah.   The Messiah is a human and is expected to liberate Jewish people from their enemies, restore Jewish sovereignity over the land of Israel, and in so doing inaugurate a golden age of Universal peace and justice.


Simple as it may seem but there are questions that can be posed againts those statements such as:


1.   Who are the Jews say their enemises are and who/what determined them.


2.   Who got to determine Jewish Sovereignity and over what/which land of Israel.  Even Jerusalem was never, in their own history, was never sanctioned as Jewish land.   God/ALLAHswt had denied them for many times over.  If they claim to be the people of God, then what, in the twist of their Torah, was said as the Kingdom of Israel by their prophets, is not what was twisted by the rebels in the Jews priestly hirearchy, as the land of Israel so that they as one signle tiny flock of bani-Israel can claim the whole earth/world.   In time to come there will be Jews claiming parts of Siberia is their Sovereighn land because "our grand fathers were born there! "


3.    How the Jewish Sovereignity and peace to be restored in this golden age with justice when swords are being sent among the Jews many enemies like what it is said in :


JEREMIAH 25:15


For thus said the Lord, the God of Israel, to me: "Take from My hand this wine cup of wrath and make all the nations to whom I send you drink of it. Let them drink and retch and go wild because of the sword that I am sending among them." So I took the cup from the hand of the Lord and gave drink to all the nations to whom the Lord had sent me: Jerusalem and the towns of Judah, and its kings and officials, to make them a desolate ruin, an object of hissing and a curse -- as is now the case; Pharaoh king of Egypt, his courtiers, his officials, and all his people; all the mixed peoples; all the kings of the land of Utz; all the kings of the land of the Philistines -- Ashkelon, Gaza, Ekron, and what is left of Ashdod; Edom, Moab and Ammon; all the kings of Tyre and all the kings of Sidon, and all the kings of the coastland across the sea; Dedan, Tema, and Buz, and all those who have their pe'ah clipped; all the kings of Arabia, and all the kings of the mixed peoples who live in the desert; all the kings of Zimri and all the kings of Elam and all the kings of media; all the kings of the north, whether far from or close to each other -- al the royal lands which are on the earth. And last of all, the king of Sheshach [i.e. Babylon] shall drink. Say to them: "Thus said the Lord of Hosts, the God of Israel: Drink and get drunk and vomit; fall and never rise again, because of the sword that I send among you."


In the Al-Quran/Islam there is no such thing as this spiritually childish obsession on Messiahship.   Muhammadsaw never claim he was to be a messiah of the Arabs but he did liberated the Arabs and united them for a long time.   He did prophesied the end of the Roman Empire and initiated action plan to liberate all the lands in the Arab Jazeera and others around it even to the benefit of the Jews.  Those task were undertaken by a line of his companions and completed by Sayiddina Omar r.a.  I would say going by Jewish own definition Muhammadsaw would fit the bill as their Messiah.  But who cares.   As far as Muslims are concerned spiritual prophets carrying divine messages are all Messiahs.  To liberate mankind from their spiritual ignorance - not knowing who they are and of their own creation. 


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 09, 2012 - 9:41AM #6
Dudette
Posts: 137

Hello again visio!


You bring up some very good points...thank you!


You know, I never really thought about what is written in the Hebrew Scriptures would mean to Muslims...


It seemed much clearer at the time of Jesus because Israel was under Roman rule but now...


One of my hypothesis, learning about Christianity, is that I think that the people accepting Jesus as the Messiah were suppose to follow Judaism. 


I also read Jeremiah 25:15 and agree with you, that it doesn't really seem like all of this is conducive to preparing peace.


In my opinion, any God asking their followers to kill is not moving in the direction of peace.


 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 12:28AM #7
visio
Posts: 3,229

Apr 9, 2012 -- 9:41AM, Dudette wrote:


Hello again visio!


You bring up some very good points...thank you!


You know, I never really thought about what is written in the Hebrew Scriptures would mean to Muslims... 



The point is whenever a Muslim comes across many of those verses in the Hebrew scriptures they only amplified what God/ALLAHswt has highlighted the behaviour of those select group of bani-Israel (the elderlies in the controlling heirarchy), referred to as Yehudis/Nasaranis in the Al-Quran [which may or may not be the same as what you call Jews or Christians, to-day) and what they had done to all the Commands God/ALLAHswt had instructed thru the tongues of Musasaw (Moses). [Note:   God/ALLAHswt, Guardian Angels, Jinns, Prophets don't write anything - on stones, tablets, tree trunks ..whatever].   Muslims took all those as a lesson for themselves and not worth messing around with what they had done to those Commands made thru all of their prophets.   God/ALLAHswt has reminded that He would be the One to judge on them.   That's all to it.   If any Muslim were to quote he/she could be under pressure to react to something or just to remind of the facts that they or their predecessors have themselves written.


It seemed much clearer at the time of Jesus because Israel was under Roman rule but now...



I can question your statement:    Was there Israel under Roman rule?   What is the difference between Israel of bani-Israel (Children of Israel) and Yisrael of Jacob's struggles with God in the spiritual kingdom of the jinns/angels?  I read somewhere that the word Israel first appeared in Egyptian/Pharaos tablets and not in Hebrew.  Is that correct?  I am not surprised if one research on what was meant by the term Israel, it is no difference to what is referred to as the spiritual kingdom of demi-gods, gods, godesses that were written or talked about by ancient people from almost all cultures across the planets - the ancient Greeks, the zahidis of ancient Mesopotamia, the Hindus, the Chineses and including those in the Malay/Indonesian Archipelago.  This is the kingdom very often mentioned in the Al-Quran as that of the Jinns - one noth above that of Man and one notch below the angels.  With respect to Man's Kingdom, it is the spiritual kingdom that is nearer to God/ALLAHswt.   The Al-Quran thus reaffirmed the belief of those ancient cultures mentioned of the existence of another spiritual kingdom above us (human).   I have one interesting information about a contrasting experience of some of the early missionary of Islam outside of Arab Al-Jazeera.  In central Asia controlled by the Mongols, those early Muslim missionaries encounter plentiful of swords and many were killed.   In South East Asia, such was not the case.   Instead, they encountered loadfuls of occultist mysticism, black magics which are very directly connected with the higher spirit world/kingdom which is the true Israel.   So those missionaries thru their ALLAHswt given wisdom that modified certain prayer rituals that met the requirements of the Al-Quran and at the same time that had also benefitted them.  And those modifications were not that sophisticated - only by changing the words/names in the zikr (mantraic sound).


To be honest, this is the knowledge (of the kingdom of Israel) that the partriachal system, protected generation after generation, of this small group of bani-Israel is denying to their masses for the last thousands of years, until to-day.  There are pros and cons about this knowledge (which is part and parcel of practising mysticm - Sufism, Agnoticism, Kabbalah, Spiritual yoga....) but to deny it's existence while they know about it, is dishonest to God/ALLAHswt because it leads to ignorance.  Their only motive, that I can think of, is total control.   When the Catholics launched their Inquisition, Christians were led into a deeper ignorance.  Islam went down went they started to follow suit but fortunately they failed because without them the knowledge of the Al-Quran couldn't be as deeper as it is to-day and there would be no Islamic esotorecism.   


One of my hypothesis, learning about Christianity, is that I think that the people accepting Jesus as the Messiah were suppose to follow Judaism.



If messiahsip is focussed only on it's outward meaning of a sort of theological and/or political leadership then one has to understand the differences between the terms bani-Israel (Children of Israel) and bani-Adam (Children of Adam) and not to forget bani-Ibrahim (Children of Abraham).   John the Baptist gave an important clue when he was commenting on baptism.   He, with water and Jesus with both water and fire.  And Jesus did explicitly say that he came from the heaven (indicating that his spirit/mind originated in Israel (the higher heavenly kingdom).   Jesus was thus a true bani-Israel.  His mission was thus specific to those bani-Israel.   In the context of the Al-Quran, they are the spirits from the offspring of the Jinns that God/ALLAHswt had chosen to resurrect into human existence.  So they have a dual citizenship - as bani-Israel and bani-Adam.   They have to observe the two Laws :  that of Moses and that of Jesus (the higher Laws).  Jesus did mention or dropped a hint about this Higher Laws thus indirectly proclaiming the existence of a higher kingdom which is the true Israel.   Those recalcitrant elderlies just didn't like their secret knowledge be exposed.   That's all to it.   When they are disputing this between them, God/ALLAHswt sent down Muhammadsaw and the Al-Quran to give one single book with a complete story.   There weren't enough narratives of Jesus touching on Laws for the original pure Children of Adam during his ministry.  In fact he refrained from elaborating on it.  


I also read Jeremiah 25:15 and agree with you, that it doesn't really seem like all of this is conducive to preparing peace.



I would advise Muslims to go on wild quotation-spree and start of Jewphobia.   It is not worth it.  ALLAHswt says no one can change a people unless those people change themselves.   Muslims heve a better job to work on themselves and their families and look after the welfare in their communities.   According to Muslim historians, When Khalid Ibn Walid and his army annnounced of his taking authority on those territories they have annexed he declared the collection of Jizyah to all the haves of the non-Muslim.   For the have-nots of the non-Muslim he had this to say:  "They don't have to pay anything.   Instead, they and their families would be fed from the consolidated fund of the Muslim Authority."   That the way it was.  Hopefully something better should be expected in the future. 


In my opinion, any God asking their followers to kill is not moving in the direction of peace.


 




As far as Muslims are concerned all the instruction made to fight as quoted in the Al-Quran came from ALLAHswt thru Gabriel.   And by declaring Muhammadsaw was the Last Prophet, God/ALLAHswt, by default, had also declared that no more "fighting" instruction directly from him other than the general guide line - when the need arises to defend their homes/properties/lands or beiing driven out.   Thus there is much wisdom call needed on those who are making the decision.   In to-day's world that is politics.   Islamophobia is trying to justify it as a religious issue.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 2:24PM #8
Abdullah.
Posts: 882

Hi dudette,


 


Jesus [pbuh] was the Messiah, thus the Jews basically 'missed the boat'


 


however Muhammad [saw] was prophecised in the Torah too, not as the Messiah, but as the last and final Messenger of God, thus it is time for them to catch the last boat, if you know what i mean! Wink

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 8:08PM #9
visio
Posts: 3,229

Apr 10, 2012 -- 2:24PM, Abdullah. wrote:


Hi dudette,


 


Jesus [pbuh] was the Messiah, thus the Jews basically 'missed the boat'


 


however Muhammad [saw] was prophecised in the Torah too, not as the Messiah, but as the last and final Messenger of God, thus it is time for them to catch the last boat, if you know what i mean! Wink




Not a known and well accepted prophecy made by Isasaw (Jesus), as the last and disowned bani-Israeli prophet [Sorry, I won't refer to him as a Jewish, nor, a Yehudi prophet, because that is the term of reference used in the Al-Quran.   The Jews or the old Yehudis claimed all of bani-Israel were them.   In the Al-Quran, the Yehudis were those group fringes of bani-Israel who over thousand of years repeatedly ridiculed all the Messenger of God sent down to them, since the day of Adam, if there were such a single man named] that I found is recorded in a Hebrew Gospel of the Ebionites (a.k.a Gospel of Nazarene?) which reads as the following:


89 : 9 (GoN)   "And yet another will rise and he will teach many things which I have taught you already, and he will spread the Gospel among the Gentiles with great zeal. But the keys of the kingdom will I give to those who succeed you in my spirit and obeying my law."


This prophetic narrative and I don't know how many others resembling it, we don't see in the four canonised Gospel (written Injeel).   Somehow, somewhere they got hijacked and hidden.  The Al-Quran does confirm that Isasaw (Jesus) did make a prophecy and it reads as the following:


As-Saff  61 : 6   And when Isa, son of Maryam, said:   “O Children of Israel!   I am the Messenger of ALLAH unto you, confirming the Taurat (Torah) before me, and giving glad tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad.   But when he came to them with clear proofs, they said:  “This is plain magic.”


In the context of what Abdullah said, he is right.  There is a last boat they (Children of Abraham) have to catch.  Well forget about the statement which could be misunderstood as proselytizing.   Let's look at what Jesus says in the GoNic verse especially the line :  "teach many things which I have taught you already".


What teachings in the Al-Quran that Isasaw (Jesus) had it taught to his disciples?


I let people, especially Muslims,  to have the opportunities to think or contemplate what are implied in these two verses.



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2 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2012 - 9:59AM #10
Dudette
Posts: 137

Hi visio!


Thank you for taking the time!


Unfortunately, I am unable to answer your questions because I don't know.


You write:


They have to observe the two Laws :  that of Moses and that of Jesus (the higher Laws).


What do you mean by Jesus' higher Laws?


You add:


Those recalcitrant elderlies just didn't like their secret knowledge be exposed.


Don't you even entertain the idea that Jesus didn't meet the "criterias" of the Messiah?


You add:


There weren't enough narratives of Jesus touching on Laws for the original pure Children of Adam during his ministry.  In fact he refrained from elaborating on it.  


What do you mean by that?


You also write:


I would advise Muslims to go on wild quotation-spree and start of Jewphobia.


You might find me naïve but I don't thing it is a good idea to tarnish anyone.


agree with the idea that no one can change someone else unless they change themselves and that it is a better idea to work on ourselves and our families and look after the welfare in our communities.

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