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Switch to Forum Live View Mohammad = the Messiah?
3 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2012 - 10:02AM #11
Dudette
Posts: 137

Hi Abdullah!


You write:


Muhammad [saw] was prophecised in the Torah too, not as the Messiah, but as the last and final Messenger of God


Can you tell me where I can find this information in the Hebrew Scriptures?

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2012 - 8:11PM #12
visio
Posts: 3,393

Apr 11, 2012 -- 9:59AM, Dudette wrote:


Hi visio!


Thank you for taking the time!


Unfortunately, I am unable to answer your questions because I don't know.



Fair enough. 


You write:


They have to observe the two Laws :  that of Moses and that of Jesus (the higher Laws).


 


What do you mean by Jesus' higher Laws?



These are laws prescribed/given to the spirits of offsprings/beings in the spiritual kingdom of Israel (the heavenly kingdom of the jinns) covenanted before they are chosen to inherit and partake earthly existence and co-exist as bani-Adam (Children of Adam) i.e. fleshly born out of a woman's womb.  Worship is thus more focussed on the meditative or contemplative type. Foa a pure bani-Adam, worship involves body physical movements.  Islam/Quran integrates both.


You add:


Those recalcitrant elderlies just didn't like their secret knowledge be exposed


.


Don't you even entertain the idea that Jesus didn't meet the "criterias" of the Messiah?



Yes, it is not the question of Jesus meeting their "criterias" of Messiahship.  It was a question of Jesus wiping out the false and twisted criterias of Messiahship tongue-spoken by the various predecessing prophets.   What I am implying here is that what went into the books were not exactly those that come out of the Prophet's mouth.  Moses went thru all sorts of ridicule.  From one Islamic sourced account Samiri, who, probably initiated the golden calf, was an occultist.  He used to take the earth dust left by Moses's footsteps and used it to invoke occultism of varying kind.   Quite ironically, such similar practice are being practised by a certain sect of Muslims, who always carry a piece of the earth taken around one mosques somewhere. 


You add:


There weren't enough narratives of Jesus touching on Laws for the original pure Children of Adam during his ministry.  In fact he refrained from elaborating on it.


 


What do you mean by that?



As I mentioned above.   Look at the form of worship and prayer. 


You also write:


I would advise Muslims to go on wild quotation-spree and start of Jewphobia.



You might find me naïve but I don't thing it is a good idea to tarnish anyone.



No, I also think it as a good idea.  Muslims have been warned in the Al-Quran not to look down upon what others of their faith/religion, even their objects of worship.   ALLAHswt say that only He alone knows what are in their hearts and mind.  The large variation of behaviours between people or group of people Muslims would be quick to accept it as fithrah (predetermined) which too often Muslims can be preceived as insensitive, permissive, condoning ...... whatever. 


I agree with the idea that no one can change someone else unless they change themselves and that it is a better idea to work on ourselves and our families and look after the welfare in our communities.




Overtime, within this life time or even next lifetime, people would change and progress back to God/ALLAHswt.   Why all these, what seems to be a desperate rush?  To me it's all business politics under the buzzwords of globalisation.   The reality is that western societies are hard pressed to defend and sustain their dollar consuming social welfare system which was built around all the gains they made during their colonial & imperial days, against the background of improved education and economic know-how that the rest of the world are experiencing right now.  Those were the days when I heard an Indian orator speaking at one corner of London's Hyde Park saying:  "Even that big jewel on the Queen's Royal Crown was plundered from India."  Inspite of that I'll still say "God Saves the Queen!" 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 10:12AM #13
Ibn
Posts: 4,937

Jesus was Messiah for Children of Israel (Jews/Yehudin).


A Messiah is someone who gives you warning just before you are going to get into serious trouble such as dying, falling off a very high place and certain death.


In religious sense, a messenger from God trying to save a group of people (Bani Israel in this case) from God's wrath that was about to fall on them for their wrong doings is Messiah.


Jesus is the Messiah in the Qur'an.

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 10:31AM #14
Dudette
Posts: 137

Hi visio!


You write:


It was a question of Jesus wiping out the false and twisted criterias of Messiahship tongue-spoken by the various predecessing prophets.  What I am implying here is that what went into the books were not exactly those that come out of the Prophet's mouth.  


How can we really know?

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 10:34AM #15
Dudette
Posts: 137

Hi Ibn!


Thank you for the information!


Can I ask you to tell me if you think Jesus was both the Messiah and a prophet?

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 11:10AM #16
visio
Posts: 3,393

Apr 12, 2012 -- 10:31AM, Dudette wrote:


Hi visio!


You write:


It was a question of Jesus wiping out the false and twisted criterias of Messiahship tongue-spoken by the various predecessing prophets.  What I am implying here is that what went into the books were not exactly those that come out of the Prophet's mouth.  


How can we really know?




Did ever Jesus mention that he came to liberate the Jews from the Roman?  What he was talking all the time was about the next (higher) kingdom and how to prepare for it right here on this eartly kingdom.   Jews (Judaism) either don't believe and won't discuss, or, believe and won't discuss about an after-life, or, don't know, leave it to God whatever God wishes. They don't believe in hell or heaven, irrespective of their literally or symbolically interpreted meanings.  Well that's the general impression I get from many Jewish posters on JD board. And it is the same assesment given by God/ALLAHswt in the Al-Quran.  Nothing has changed for them.  




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3 years ago  ::  Apr 13, 2012 - 9:09AM #17
Dudette
Posts: 137

Hi visio!


You wrote:


Did ever Jesus mention that he came to liberate the Jews from the Roman? 


No 


You add:


What he was talking all the time was about the next (higher) kingdom and how to prepare for it right here on this eartly kingdom.


I knew that this is what Christians think...Muslims too?  


My "experience" has taught me that there are many different ways to interpret Scriptures so it is hard to know what the authors really meant.


You also write:


And it is the same assesment given by God/ALLAHswt in the Al-Quran.  Nothing has changed for them.  


Can you tell me where I can find this information in the Koran?

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 13, 2012 - 4:18PM #18
visio
Posts: 3,393

Apr 13, 2012 -- 9:09AM, Dudette wrote:


Hi visio!


You wrote:


Did ever Jesus mention that he came to liberate the Jews from the Roman? 


No



Therefore, Jesus was not their Messiah.   (Just for the sake of argument) Muhammadsaw was. He initiated the move to liberate all those lands from the Romans.   They didn't accept Muhammadsaw as their Messiah because they (the outspoken among them0 would never understand it, nor, believe it that the inherited spirit that was with Muhammadsaw was the same as that of Ilyassaw (Elijah) of several centuries before.  Obviously and expectedly they  would never understand or attempt to understand the following verse when it was recited/narrated and directed to several Jews in the audience:


Yunus (Jonah) 10 : 16   Say (O Muhammadsaw): "If ALLAH had so willed, I should not have recited it to you nor would ALLAH have made it known to you.   Verily, I have stayed amongst you a lifetime before this.   Have you then no sense?" 


When we talk about our spiritual advancement we cannot run away from the reality of the trinity in the constitution of what is referred to the SELF of each of our PERSON which is simply defined as SELF =  SOUL + Inherited SPIRIT/MIND + Receptacular BODY.  And the Jewish paradigm is that when we all die, everything in there would all go kaput


You add:


What he was talking all the time was about the next (higher) kingdom and how to prepare for it right here on this eartly kingdom.


I knew that this is what Christians think...Muslims too?  


My "experience" has taught me that there are many different ways to interpret Scriptures so it is hard to know what the authors really meant.



That is what one can expect with revealed scriptures authored by men.   You cannot equate it with the Al-Quran.   It is a singly authored by God/ALLAHswt and transmitted thru the tongue of Muhammadsaw in the chosen language of Arabic which I gather resemble closely Aramaic. 


You also write:


And it is the same assesment given by God/ALLAHswt in the Al-Quran.  Nothing has changed for them.  


Can you tell me where I can find this information in the Koran?




Al-An'am 6 : 91-92   They (The Jews, Quraishpagans, idolaters) did not estimate ALLAHswt with an estimation due to Him when they said:   "Nothing did ALLAH send down to any human being."  Say (O Muhammadsaw):   "Who then sent down the Book which Musa (Moses) brought, a light and a guidance to mankind which you (the Jews) have made into (separate) papersheets, disclosing (some of it) and concealing much.   And you (O Muhammadsaw) were taught (in the revelation of the Al-Quran) that which neither you nor your forefathers knew."  Say:   "ALLAH did."   Then leave them to play in their vain discussions.   And this (Quran) is a blessed Book which We have sent down, confirming which came before it, so that you may warn the Mother of Towns (Makkah) and all those around it.   Those who believe in the Hereafter believe in it, and they are constant in guarding their Salat (Worship an dprayer).


Al-An'am 6 : 111-113   And even if We had sent down them angels, an dth edead had spoken unto them, and We had gathered together all things before their very eyes, they would not have believed, unless ALLAH willed, but most of them behave ignorantly (in their own paradigm and exegesis).   And so We have appointed for every Prophets enemies - Shaytan (devils) among mankind and jinnkind, inspiring one another with adorned speech as a delusion/deception.   If your Lord had so willed, they would not have done it, so leave them alone with their fabrications.   (And this is in order) that th ehearts of those who disbelieve in the Hereafter may incline to such (deceit), and that they may commit what they are committing (all kinds of mischief)


These are some of the general statements found in the al-Quran.   Please note the my emphasis on the underlined & italicised word  Hereafter, the believe in which remains the bane of ALLAHswt's contention with the Jews and mentioned repeatedly in the Al-Quran. There are many other details explaing the above verse but they appear in the Hadith of Prophet Muhammadsaw

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 8:29AM #19
Abdullah.
Posts: 882

Apr 11, 2012 -- 10:02AM, Dudette wrote:


Hi Abdullah!


You write:


Muhammad [saw] was prophecised in the Torah too, not as the Messiah, but as the last and final Messenger of God


Can you tell me where I can find this information in the Hebrew Scriptures?




 


here are some links with references inside, but do bear in mind that the Torah too is considered distorted thus there could have been more and clearer references to Muhammad [saw] in the orignal Torah, just as in the original Bible


www.islam101.com/religions/christianity/...


www.islamicity.com/Mosque/Muhammad_Bible...


 


in the Quran, Allah [swt] says


 


Those who follow the Apostle, the unlettered Prophet, Whom they find mentioned in their own Scriptures, in the Torah and the Gospel... (Holy Qu'ran: VII - 157; Translation: Yusif Ali)


 


thus there may have been very clear references to Muhammad [saw] in the Torah in the 7th century, for otherwise the Jews would have been able to refute the Quran by saying there is no such mention at all... , and infact many Jews recognised the Prophet Muhammad [saw] from his descriptions in the Torah; here is a link provides such stories


www.imamreza.net/eng/imamreza.php?id=599...

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 11:43AM #20
Dudette
Posts: 137

Hi visio!


From what I know of the prophecies announcing the Messiah in the Hebrew Scriptures, Jesus fits it more that Muhammad.


You also write:


That is what one can expect with revealed scriptures authored by men.   You cannot equate it with the Al-Quran.   It is a singly authored by God/ALLAHswt and transmitted thru the tongue of Muhammadsaw in the chosen language of Arabic which I gather resemble closely Aramaic. 


I will give you the the Koran has more unity because it is from the same author.  However, if Jews and Christians think that God was talking through the Prophets and Christians add that God inspired the New Testament, isn't it pretty much the same thing as Muslims thinking that Allah transmitted his message through Muhammad?  Am I missing something?


I'm curious, who is "we" in:


And this (Quran) is a blessed Book which We have sent down, confirming which came before it, so that you may warn the Mother of Towns (Makkah) and all those around it.   


I'm sure glad I have a Koran at home.


Thank you for taking the time!

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