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Switch to Forum Live View Is Umrah during iddah (waiting period for a woman after divorce): Sin or not a sin?
4 years ago  ::  Feb 22, 2010 - 6:52AM #11
Abdullah.
Posts: 882

Feb 20, 2010 -- 7:33PM, Ceren wrote:


Assalamu `alaykum,


I agree with mostly everything but 2 points:


I really dislike when a Muslim doesn't agree with another, they accuse each other of "following their nafs, and not Allah swt", "following the man-made doctrines of the west", etc, etc.  How do we know this? Do we have access to people's hearts?


I, for some time, was a Quran-only person. It was not because I wanted to "live the western life", or "follow my nafs". I TRULY and HONESTLY believed that hadiths were way too corrupted to base our jurisprudence on them. I truly believed that "pure Islam" meant not basing our religion in flawed narrations, etc, etc.



Salaam Sis Smile


I'm sure those comments dont apply to every 'Quran only' and the likes Sis ; they seem hypothetical and a bit jokey to me  


Feb 20, 2010 -- 7:33PM, Ceren wrote:


Shi`a reject many of the sunni sahih mutawattir. They in fact have a whole different collection of hadith. However, the majority of scholars of ahl sunnah wal jama`h have considered them Muslims.


Thus I don't understand why a person who believes that jurisprudence should be derived from the Quran only can then be classified as a kafir.  This especially since we have, through the hadith in which Jibreel tells our prophet Mohammad what is Islam, Iman and Ihsan, the definition of Islam and thus the definition of Muslim.


And Allah swt knows best.


Ceren




As you can see Sis, there is a consensus on that view and you probably have come across the evidences of how there is a divine protection over them, i.e, Allah never unites the Muslims on an error


Also sister, a few Aqeedah points mention of how one has to adhere to consensus, thus this is part of the Aqeedah too


That view in particular is not just regarding mutawatir hadiths sis, but the whole corpus of hadiths put together, i.e, when a person just takes his evidence from the Quran without resort to the Sunnah/ahadith


the 'rafidi's' mentioned above are infact a group of shi'as, and as we can see there is a consensus of ahlus Sunnah over them too; the shia's on whom there is a disagreement on are those who do resort to some ahadith or another


 


Hope this helps

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4 years ago  ::  Feb 25, 2010 - 1:47PM #12
Teed
Posts: 35

As a relatively new, but careful student of Islam, I appreciate seeing the Koran citations for why Muslims should follow the Hadith. I can understand why a reasonable person would interpret these passages this way, but I do not think that is the only possible intepretation of those texts.


These commands to obey and heed the messenger refer to Muhammad himself, and seem to me to be only applicable to people who could actually speak directly to him. When Muhammad was alive, it was obviously important that the Ummah accept him as its leader, otherwise there would have been chaos in this newly-formed and militarily threatened community. However, I see no reason to infer from this command that Muslims a thousand years later should pour over old documents and infer the existence of prohibitions that are not even explicitly stated in the Hadiths themselves.


The alleged prohibition against music is the example that bothers me the most, particularly since almost all of my music teachers have been Muslims. I don't think it is " obeying the prophet" to take a Hadith which says something like "when society starts to deteriorate people will behave badly, and some of those badly behaved people will play music" , and infer that no one should play music today. (particularly since there is ample documentation that the Muhammad permitted members of the Ummah to play music.) Firstly, If Muhammad had wanted people to not play music in his time, he would have said straight out "Don't play Music". Secondly, there is no reason to assume that all commands given by Muhammad to his Ummah should be automatically applicable today. Part of Muhammad's greatness lies in the fact that he  was not only a religious leader, but a military and political leader is well. All military and political decisions have to be made to deal with the contingencies of the moment, and there is no reason to assume that all such decisions are as universally applicable as the moral truths found in the Koran.


Saying that one should follow the prophet means "do what the prophet tells you to do". Muhammad was both a saint and a genius, and if such a person were leading my community, I would definitely accept him as my leader. But now that the Prophet is no longer with us, he can't tell us to do anything. One should remember that Muhammad is the last prophet, which means that no Imam or group of Imams that came after him should be given the same kind of authority as the prophet in the flesh. I think it is important to read the Hadith, because they contain much wisdom and inspiration, and because they provide the context that enables us to understand the complete meaning of the Koran. But that doesn't mean they should be given the same authority as the Koran itself, or as words spoken directly to you by Muhammad himself.


As a non-Muslim, I can only offer these thoughts for your consideration. I will however quote two highly regarded scholars Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi and Imam Malik. They state that any attempt to construct prohibitions from the Hadith violates this passage in the Koran: Say: Have you considered what provision Allah has sent down for you, how you have made of it lawful and unlawful? Say: Has Allah permitted you, or do you invent a lie concerning Allah?” (Yunus: 59) They take this passage to mean that no one should construct prohibitions that are not specifically stated in the Koran.

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4 years ago  ::  Feb 25, 2010 - 9:52PM #13
Ceren
Posts: 1,430

Wa'alaykum salam brother


Feb 22, 2010 -- 6:52AM, Abdullah. wrote:


As you can see Sis, there is a consensus on that view and you probably have come across the evidences of how there is a divine protection over them, i.e, Allah never unites the Muslims on an error



Actually, I don't see there's consensus. Just because a website says that there's consensus, it doesn't mean there is consensus. In fact, there's no "ijma" on "ijma", and the different schools (and even different scholars within a same school) have different on when "ijma" is met or not.


Sadly nowadays with ignorance lots of people claim that there is "ijma" on this or that. Just because a majority of scholars have the opinion of XYZ, it doesn't make it ijma. So we need to be careful about that.


 


Feb 22, 2010 -- 6:52AM, Abdullah. wrote:

That view in particular is not just regarding mutawatir hadiths sis, but the whole corpus of hadiths put together, i.e, when a person just takes his evidence from the Quran without resort to the Sunnah/ahadith



Brother, the quotes you mentioned basically said that however rejects mutawattir sahih hadith is a kafir, and however rejects ahad is a fasiq.


The shi`a reject sunni mutawattir hadith and the position of the majority of the tradition ahl sunnah wal jammah is that they are Muslims. Thus it defeats simple logic to say that a person who rejects mutawattir hadiths is a kafir but shi`a are not. You can't have it both ways.


All the best,


Ceren

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4 years ago  ::  Feb 25, 2010 - 10:54PM #14
Faqir
Posts: 238

Feb 22, 2010 -- 6:52AM, Abdullah. wrote:


the 'rafidi's' mentioned above are infact a group of shi'as, and as we  can see there is a consensus of ahlus Sunnah over them too; the shia's  on whom there is a disagreement on are those who do resort to some  ahadith or another




1) Rafidi is a pejorative term, please do not use it.


2) None of the Shi'a accept the sunni hadith collections although I believe the Zaydis use some sunni hadith. However, the Shi'a have many hadith that are similar (sometimes even exactly the same) to sunni hadith related through different chains.


3) Your statement is not clear. All Shi'a resort to some hadith, but not necessarily those in the sunni hadith collections.


4) One of the reasons the theory of consensus in practice is nonsense is that even claims of consensus are only made by excluding large numbers of muslims. For example, as we are talking about the Shi'a, they are completely excluded when considering consensus. You just whittle down who has a say until the only people left are those who agree with you and then you have a consensus.

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4 years ago  ::  Feb 26, 2010 - 8:58AM #15
visio
Posts: 3,229

Feb 25, 2010 -- 1:47PM, Teed wrote:


As a relatively new, but careful student of Islam, I appreciate seeing the Koran citations for why Muslims should follow the Hadith. I can understand why a reasonable person would interpret these passages this way, but I do not think that is the only possible intepretation of those texts.


These commands to obey and heed the messenger refer to Muhammad himself, and seem to me to be only applicable to people who could actually speak directly to him. When Muhammad was alive, it was obviously important that the Ummah accept him as its leader, otherwise there would have been chaos in this newly-formed and militarily threatened community. However, I see no reason to infer from this command that Muslims a thousand years later should pour over old documents and infer the existence of prohibitions that are not even explicitly stated in the Hadiths themselves.


The alleged prohibition against music is the example that bothers me the most, particularly since almost all of my music teachers have been Muslims. I don't think it is " obeying the prophet" to take a Hadith which says something like "when society starts to deteriorate people will behave badly, and some of those badly behaved people will play music" , and infer that no one should play music today. (particularly since there is ample documentation that the Muhammad permitted members of the Ummah to play music.) Firstly, If Muhammad had wanted people to not play music in his time, he would have said straight out "Don't play Music". Secondly, there is no reason to assume that all commands given by Muhammad to his Ummah should be automatically applicable today. Part of Muhammad's greatness lies in the fact that he  was not only a religious leader, but a military and political leader is well. All military and political decisions have to be made to deal with the contingencies of the moment, and there is no reason to assume that all such decisions are as universally applicable as the moral truths found in the Koran.


Saying that one should follow the prophet means "do what the prophet tells you to do". Muhammad was both a saint and a genius, and if such a person were leading my community, I would definitely accept him as my leader. But now that the Prophet is no longer with us, he can't tell us to do anything. One should remember that Muhammad is the last prophet, which means that no Imam or group of Imams that came after him should be given the same kind of authority as the prophet in the flesh. I think it is important to read the Hadith, because they contain much wisdom and inspiration, and because they provide the context that enables us to understand the complete meaning of the Koran. But that doesn't mean they should be given the same authority as the Koran itself, or as words spoken directly to you by Muhammad himself.


As a non-Muslim, I can only offer these thoughts for your consideration. I will however quote two highly regarded scholars Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi and Imam Malik. They state that any attempt to construct prohibitions from the Hadith violates this passage in the Koran: Say: Have you considered what provision Allah has sent down for you, how you have made of it lawful and unlawful? Say: Has Allah permitted you, or do you invent a lie concerning Allah?” (Yunus: 59) They take this passage to mean that no one should construct prohibitions that are not specifically stated in the Koran.




That's very well thought out Teed.   You couldn't have expressed it better.  There we words and action of the Prophets that were interim in nature because the capacity of the people to understand them were somehow limited at the time.  Especially on community and interpersonal matters.  If I can recall it correctly even the current Sharia Laws on Faraifh (Inheritance Laws)the material verses intitially came down in stages.  So in any study of the hadiths, extra care is necessary to understand the action of the late Prophet. It is not in anyway suggesting the late Prophet was limited in his VISION of the LAW.  It was an interim wisdom move so as not to rock the boat heavily when many couldn't still swim by themselves. Otherwise, why should the Prophet have made a call to his followers to seek knowledge, even if they have to travel to the East (China?).  Please don't tell it is about the knowledge to make firecrackers.  In a very closed community of the days, any wife leaving a house for several days could trigger a lot of gossips.  The Al-Quranic advisory on those housewives under iddah serves to avoid unnecessary gossips that can destabilise families especially those at the points of breaking up.  The phrase in the subject verse is to be read separately from that portion involving illegal sexual act, as far as I am concerned - until I see a hadith explaining that verse.   Otherwise, any declaration that it is a (Divine Sin) is only a conjecture.     


 

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4 years ago  ::  Feb 27, 2010 - 8:19AM #16
timablue
Posts: 8

Sometimes people over think things. How can there be a bad time to perform one of our religious obligations? I say go if you have the opportunity (it may never come again).

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4 years ago  ::  Feb 27, 2010 - 9:31AM #17
Abdullah.
Posts: 882

Feb 25, 2010 -- 1:47PM, Teed wrote:


As a relatively new, but careful student of Islam, I appreciate seeing the Koran citations for why Muslims should follow the Hadith. I can understand why a reasonable person would interpret these passages this way, but I do not think that is the only possible intepretation of those texts.


These commands to obey and heed the messenger refer to Muhammad himself, and seem to me to be only applicable to people who could actually speak directly to him. When Muhammad was alive, it was obviously important that the Ummah accept him as its leader, otherwise there would have been chaos in this newly-formed and militarily threatened community. However, I see no reason to infer from this command that Muslims a thousand years later should pour over old documents and infer the existence of prohibitions that are not even explicitly stated in the Hadiths themselves.


The alleged prohibition against music is the example that bothers me the most, particularly since almost all of my music teachers have been Muslims. I don't think it is " obeying the prophet" to take a Hadith which says something like "when society starts to deteriorate people will behave badly, and some of those badly behaved people will play music" , and infer that no one should play music today. (particularly since there is ample documentation that the Muhammad permitted members of the Ummah to play music.) Firstly, If Muhammad had wanted people to not play music in his time, he would have said straight out "Don't play Music". Secondly, there is no reason to assume that all commands given by Muhammad to his Ummah should be automatically applicable today. Part of Muhammad's greatness lies in the fact that he  was not only a religious leader, but a military and political leader is well. All military and political decisions have to be made to deal with the contingencies of the moment, and there is no reason to assume that all such decisions are as universally applicable as the moral truths found in the Koran.


Saying that one should follow the prophet means "do what the prophet tells you to do". Muhammad was both a saint and a genius, and if such a person were leading my community, I would definitely accept him as my leader. But now that the Prophet is no longer with us, he can't tell us to do anything. One should remember that Muhammad is the last prophet, which means that no Imam or group of Imams that came after him should be given the same kind of authority as the prophet in the flesh. I think it is important to read the Hadith, because they contain much wisdom and inspiration, and because they provide the context that enables us to understand the complete meaning of the Koran. But that doesn't mean they should be given the same authority as the Koran itself, or as words spoken directly to you by Muhammad himself.


As a non-Muslim, I can only offer these thoughts for your consideration. I will however quote two highly regarded scholars Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi and Imam Malik. They state that any attempt to construct prohibitions from the Hadith violates this passage in the Koran: Say: Have you considered what provision Allah has sent down for you, how you have made of it lawful and unlawful? Say: Has Allah permitted you, or do you invent a lie concerning Allah?” (Yunus: 59) They take this passage to mean that no one should construct prohibitions that are not specifically stated in the Koran.




Hi Teed Smile


It is nice to see my friend that my post has benifited you, mashAllah may Allah make you into a proffesional Islamic Scholar, ameen Smile


Teed, I can tell you my friend from the evidences i've come across is that all the foremost views of the four schools are based on substantial evidence and when they all agree on something, the evidence is overwhelming


I think my friend that you have not come across all the evidences prohibitting music and some of it can seem to be a bit dubious, so just in order to show how overwhelming and decicive views of consensus' are my friend, i will inshAllah lay out some of the evidences for the music opinion but as previously mentioned, the difference of opinion on this should not be a matter of contention between any muslims [or non-muslims for that matter Smile] as upright sufi's who do use it for zikr [rememberance of Allah] purposes is not condemned


Lets first see what the Quran has to say on this inshAllah:


“And there are among men, those that purchase idle tales, to mislead (men) from the path of Allah and throw ridicule. For such there will be a humiliating punishment” (Surah Luqman, V. 6).


now one thing that is clear to see from the Quranic evidences is that along with the Quran, it's interpretation has been revealed to the Prophet Muhammad [saw] too, hence we have a divine interpretation to the Quran too; the companions of the Prophet [saw] learnt their interpretation of the Quran from the guidance of the Prophet muhammad [saw] so any interpretation by a companion, especially a major companion, is not to be taken lightly, and in this light, lets see what Abdullah ibn masud [ra] said about it:


The great Companion Abd Allah ibn Mas’ud (Allah be pleased with him) states in the explanation of the word “idle tales”:


“By Allah its meaning is music” (Sunan al-Bayhaqi, 1/223 & authenticated by al-Hakim in his Mustadrak, 2/411).


Abdullah ibn Abbas [ra], the Prophet's [saw] cousin said:



“The meaning of the word is music, singing and the like” (Sunan al-Bayhaqi, 1/221& Musannaf Ibn abi Shayba, 132/5).



He also stated:



“Music and the purchase of female singers” (Musannaf Ibn Abi Shayba, 132/5).


hasan al Basri [ra] was a great sufi and I think he was of the second or third generation of muslims; he said:



“This verse was revealed in relation to singing and musical instruments” (Tafsir ibn Kathir, 3/442)



The same explanation has also been narrated from Mujahid, Ikrima, Ibrahim Nakha’i, Mak’hul and others (Allah be pleased with them all).; these are all great scholars


the mention of a 'humiliating punishment' associated with 'idle talk'. i.e music... indicates it's prohibition


“Those who witness no falsehood, and if they pass by futility, they pass by it with honourable avoidance” (Surah al-Furqan, V. 72).


Imam Abu Bakr al-Jassas relates from Sayyiduna Imam Abu Hanifah (Allah be pleased with him) that the meaning of “falsehood (zur)” is music & song, (Ahkam al-Qur’an, 3/428).


3) Allah Most High said to Shaytan:


“Lead to destruction those whom you can among them with your (seductive) voice” (Surah al-Isra, V.64).


One of the great exegete, Mujahid (Allah have mercy on him) interpreted the word “voice (sawt)” by music, singing, dancing and idle things. (Ruh al-Ma’ani, 15/111).


Imam Suyuti (Allah have mercy on him) quoted Mujahid as saying: “Voice (in this verse) is singing and flute” (al-Iklil fi istinbat al-tanzil, 1444).


Another exegete, Dahhak (Allah have mercy on him) also interpreted the word “Sawt” with flutes. (Qurtubi, al-Jami` li Ahkam al-Qur’an, 10/288).


Here also, a general interpretation can be given, as indeed some commentators of the Qur ' an have done, but this does not contradict the meaning given by Mujahid and Dahhak, as it is included in the more broad and general meaning.


now the above opinions are by great Scholars my dear brother and Abu Hanifa mentioned above is the founding father of one of the four traditional schools; Hannafiyyah, so we can see from all of the above evidence that the Quran evidence is pretty strong on this


Now lets move on to the sunnah inshAllah:


1) Sayyiduna Abu Malik al-Ash’ari (Allah be pleased with him) reports that he heard the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) say: “There will appear people in my Ummah, who will hold adultery, silk, alcohol and musical instruments to be lawful” (Sahih al-Bukhari)


2) Abu Malik al-Ash’ari (Allah be pleased with him) narrates a similar type of Hadith, but a different wording. He reports that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Soon there will be people from my Ummah who will consume alcohol, they will change its name (by regarding it permissible. m), on there heads will be instruments of music and singing. Allah will make the ground swallow them up, and turn them into monkeys and swine” (Sahih Ibn Hibban & Sunan Ibn Majah, with a sound chain of narration).


3) Imran ibn Husain (Allah be pleased with him) reports that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “This Ummah will experience the swallowing up of some people by the earth, metamorphosis of some into animals, and being rained upon with stones”. A man from amongst the Muslims asked: “O Messenger of Allah! When will this be?” He said: “When female singers and musical instruments appear and alcohol will (commonly) be consumed” (Recorded by Imam Tirmizi, Imam Ibn Majah in their respective Sunan collections, and the wording here is of Sunan Tirmizi).


4) Sayyiduna Ali ibn Talib (Allah be pleased with him) reports that the blessed Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “When my Ummah begin doing fifteen things, they will be inflicted with tribulations, and (from those 15 things He said): “When female singers and musical instruments become common” (Sunan Tirmizi).


5) Na’fi reports that once Abd Allah ibn Umar (Allah be pleased with them both) heard the sound of a Sheppard’s flute. He put his fingers in his ears, turned his mule away from the road and said: “O Nafi’! Can you hear? I (Nafi’) replied with the affirmative. He carried on walking (with his fingers in his ears) until I said: “the sound has ceased” He removed his fingers from his ears, came back on to the road and said: “I saw the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) doing the same when he heard the flute of the Sheppard” (Recorded by Imam Ahmad in his Musnad and Abu Dawud & Ibn Majah in their Sunans).


6) Abd Allah Ibn Umar (Allah be pleased with him) reports that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Verily Allah has forbidden alcohol, gambling, drum and guitar, and every intoxicant is haram” (Musnad Ahmad & Sunan Abu Dawud).


7) Abu Umama (Allah be pleased with him) reports that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give peace) said: “Allah Mighty and Majestic sent me as a guidance and mercy to believers and commanded me to do away with musical instruments, flutes, strings, crucifixes, and the affairs of the pre-Islamic period of ignorance” (Musnad Ahmad & Abu Dawud Tayalisi).


8) Abd Allah ibn Mas’ud (Allah be pleased with him) reports that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Song makes hypocrisy grow in the heart as water does herbage” (Sunan al-Bayhaqi).


9) Anas (Allah be pleased with him) reports that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give peace) said: “On the day of Resurrection, Allah will pour molten lead into the ears of whoever sits listening to a songstress” (Recorded by Ibn Asakir & Ibn al-Misri).


10)Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reports that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Bell is the flute of Shaytan” (Sahih Muslim & Sunan Abu Dawud).


There are many more narrations of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give peace) in prohibition of musical instruments and unlawful singing. I have merely mentioned a few as an example.


Now i know you like sufi'ism my dear friend, and we have seen a view of one of the greatest sufi's of all, Hasan Al-Basri [ra], in favour of this view and in this contemporary age, few sufi's can match the knowledge and piety of the great sufi, Shaykh nuh ha mim keller, and he says [if i remember correctly] that there are no less than 6? rigorously authenticated hadiths prohibbiting music and that music poisons one's soul! Surprised:


see link: video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3006737...#


Also my friend, lets anylise of what veracity the evidence of 'consensus' is of itself; well there are many hadiths that say that consensus' can never be wrong, thus I think this may be the reason why ahlus Sunnah [Sunni] scholars use it as a source of concrete evidence too; consensus' are established as such strong evidences that an Islamic scholar can just verify something on it's strength alone, as we can see in the following fatwa:



Question:



I know people that insist it is ok to pray salah in English, and say praying in English is better then not praying at all. how does one respond to this?





Answer:



In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Wa alaikum assalam wa rahmatullah,

The simplest explanation is that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) commanded us to, "Pray as you see me pray," and he prayed in Arabic--and this is what the community of believers has followed for over 1400 years without disagreement. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) also said, "My community will not agree on error."

And Allah alone gives success.

Faraz Rabbani



qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=...


And Shaykh nuh ha mim keller says:


there is much evidence that the orthodox majority of the Umma is divinely protected from error, such as the sahih hadith related by al-Hakim that "Allah's hand is over the group, and whoever diverges from them diverges to hell" (al-Mustadrak, 1.116). 

Studying Hadith Texts on Our Own


And here is basically what there is a consensus on regarding music:


a) Musical instruments that are exclusively designed for entertainment and dancing, and create charm, pleasure and bliss on their own (even without the singing), such as the drum, violin, guitar, fiddle, flute, lute, mandolin, harmonium, piano, string, etc… are impermissible to use under any circumstance.


There is a consensus of the whole Ummah on this. Since the first century, the Companions (sahaba), their followers (tabi’een), jurists (fuqaha) and the scholars have been generally unanimous on this ruling.


b) Singing that is a cause for a sin is also unlawful with the consensus of all the scholars, such as songs that prevent one from the obligatory (fard & wajib).


c) Any singing that is accompanied by other sins, such as songs that consist of unlawful, immoral, and sexual themes, or it is sang by non-Mahram women, etc will also be unlawful. This ruling is also with the consensus of all the scholars.


qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=...


hope this helps


Salam Smile


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4 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2010 - 8:10PM #18
visio
Posts: 3,229

I, personally, do have some skepticism or rather suspicions, about many of the hadiths in the inventory.   I always have their perennial question.  The closest of all companions of the late Prophet were the four.  They ought to know better than the rest.  But in many of the critical issues in the Al-Quranic verses, we don't always see that they had any input to it.  It is always that according to the scriber, someone heard the Prophet as to have said this and that.  And that someone was rely anyone of the four.  My questions would then be did the four really understand the Prophet and the Al-Quran at all?  In the same token, there are also hadiths that are traceable to the late Prophet family members.  And I have always have this nagging question.  Does a wife or a son or a daughter understand what is really in the father's mind.   In real life we don't see this happening.  I have experienced this personally with my late friend.  There were a lot of things we dicussed, his wife just didn't get it at all.  So I believe there is no such thing as hereditary/patriarchism in matters of religions and spirituality.  The same thing I noticed when I go thru one version of the injil (Gospel) of Isasaw (Jesus).  It appeared to me that none of the 12 disciples had a good grasp of what Isasaw (Jesus) was saying.  The tone of Isasaw (Jesus) and his having to recreate different analogy a few times don't speak well of their understanding of the dimension what Isasaw (Jesus) was talking about.  In one case Isasaw (Jesus) was teaching Peter a small miracle and it seem it didn't go very well with Peter. So in all of these, those quotation and stories could have been exaggerated  and overassumed by emotion and sentiment and may not reflect the originator's expressed or intended meanings.  There is always therefore the potential of a compounding of errors. Therefore, personally, I always excercise caution in going thru some of these hadiths, authentic or non-authentic ones, especially those related  to community building aspects and interpersonal/family relationships where a judgement can be circumstantial and transient.
So in respect of the OP, could anyone comeout with the relevant hadiths?  The Islamic Sharia' Law is simple and people friendly.  We don't need a banks of scholars and judges and 10 story high of case studies to go thru all the very facts of the Law.  The simplest of Law is no Law because then every one understands it and everyone is trained on it.  That is the First Principle of the uniform Sharia' Law and every Muslim is their own judge before ALLAH.  Hasn't the Al-Quran been revealed to make it clear between the right and wrong?.  
 

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4 years ago  ::  Mar 09, 2010 - 5:26AM #19
Ibn
Posts: 4,386

Feb 19, 2010 -- 10:49AM, Abdullah. wrote:


Hi IBN,


not sure about what mainstream Scholars say on this but for now, i'll take your word for it...[there might also be a valid difference of opinion on it]


I think what you really want to discuss here [by the tone of your post] is that only Quran should be followed and not the sunnah/hadiths; am I right?


Hi Abdullah,


No; you are wrong and confused as to what is Sunnah and what is Ahdith (it is not sunnah/hadiths). The two are not the same.


Sunnah is simply the way Prophet Muhammad (sws) obeyed the Commands of Allah (SWT). Therefore, Sunnah is directly linked to the Qur'an. Many so called ahdith are not directly linked to the Qur'an and, therefore, people need to understand this very difference.


I am all for the Qur'an and the Sunnah.


Now you can tell me where in the Qur'an it says that a woman who has been abandoned for months (at least 12) by her husband, not supporting her financially for months, going tp another country and take another wife, and after the woman has obtained Khula through an Islamic Shariah Council, cannot go for Umrah within the three months after the final divorce?


Feb 19, 2010 -- 10:49AM, Abdullah. wrote:

Well I must say that I was surprised to see you come out as a 'Quran only' or a major Sunnah sceptic ...



You "see" me wrong, and I am not surprised. 


Tell me something, why did Allah (SWT) not say in the Qur'an "obey Allah and obey Muhammad" instead of saying "obey Allah and obey the Messenger"?


Salaam


Ibn

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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4 years ago  ::  Mar 09, 2010 - 5:40PM #20
visio
Posts: 3,229

In view of the latest info for such case, why would one say it is a sin for her to go and perform an umrah?  Is it a sin for not getting an administrative paper to declare an iddah period is over and she is freed?  The sin is on the Islamic Council, as far as I am concerned, irrespective of any other facts to the case.   One shouldn't implement Laws that one cannot apply a remedy.   The husband's intention is determined by his act.   And it is pretty obvious, in this case, that he is taking advantage of weaknesses in human cross border Law.  Afterall, she is going for an umrah which is not a social do.  Give the declaration to enable her get the necessary visa which may be required by the KSA Homeland Security (I suppose).

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