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7 years ago  ::  Dec 31, 2007 - 11:52AM #11
endgame
Posts: 122
wa alaikumsalaam sis miraj,
I do not see the trend you see but I know it happens. I also know it happens the other way around. I can only speak for myself and can easily say that I only want to marry a muslim woman. Also, pretty much all the muslim men I know (no matter how far away from islam they have gone), all want to come back and marry a "straight" muslim woman. The common desire I see is to end up with a good muslimah at the end.
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 31, 2007 - 12:16PM #12
GraceSA
Posts: 1,100
Personally, I would only marry within my faith (Islam)- however if I were not going to be having more children, I would consider marrying out.  That would be a my personal choice.

I think men do it for green cards, and/or because they can get to know a woman without everyone in their business.

ALso, I am really fed up with the stereotyping of Westerners as promiscuous.  Before I converted, I didn't run around town sleeping with guys.  To this day I know non=muslims who do not.  And I know of PLENTY of fooling around in the Islamic communities.  So lets please check our prejudices at the door.

Salaam,
Grace
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 31, 2007 - 12:36PM #13
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

USMuslim wrote:

What do you mean by that? Convert eyes? That sounds insulting, as if you have some kind of superior insight over someone who chose Islam in their adulthood.

I see what my born brothers have been doing for years in my extensive network, and marrying out is becoming the norm in all but the most isolated places.




"marrying out"? I don't know where your extensive network is, but I don't think your equation, Muslim man non-Muslim woman, is the norm at all. And I've lived in half a dozen Muslim communities around the country, big and small.



Don't be so easily offended. There is a difference between born Muslims and converts and their perspectives often differ because of that difference. It's not about superiority, it just is.

To clarify, I mentioned that because converts often state that they would never marry out, and they do so because they have a stake in maintaining legitimacy within their newfound community. For many born Muslims in the west, we just don't have that test. When your heritage is Muslim, and you're surrounded by Muslims all of your life, you simply don't have the same hesitation to move outside of your realm for fear of losing your legitiamacy or place in the community.

I've lived in dozens around the world, and it is what I see over and over. I don't dismiss what I see. If you don't see it, then this thread is of no value to you.  Thank you for posting.

Salaam

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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7 years ago  ::  Dec 31, 2007 - 12:44PM #14
endgame
Posts: 122
[QUOTE=GraceSA;176449]Personally, I would only marry within my faith (Islam)- however if I were not going to be having more children, I would consider marrying out.  That would be a my personal choice.

I think men do it for green cards, and/or because they can get to know a woman without everyone in their business.

ALso, I am really fed up with the stereotyping of Westerners as promiscuous.  Before I converted, I didn't run around town sleeping with guys.  To this day I know non=muslims who do not.  And I know of PLENTY of fooling around in the Islamic communities.  So lets please check our prejudices at the door.

Salaam,
Grace[/QUOTE]

The reason I would not do it is because in my opinion I do not believe that it is allowed for men or women in islam to marry outside of our faith. I feel that the People of the Book that are referred to in the Quran were also muslim because they followed the way of the prophets that preceded Mohammad (peace be upon him). It is only when they strayed from the right path when they started calling themselves Jews or Christians. That is just my feeling on it though.

Do men do it for greencards?
I think there is enough of a muslim population in the US and other western countries where men can find muslim women to give them greencards so I do not buy that excuse anymore either.

As far as strereotyping is concerned, I agree that being a westerner does not equate to being promiscuous in any way. There are plenty of non-muslims who are not that way and plenty within the muslim community that are.
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 31, 2007 - 1:31PM #15
USMuslim
Posts: 167
[QUOTE=Miraj;176511]I see what my born brothers have been doing for years in my extensive network, and marrying out is becoming the norm in all but the most isolated places.[/quote]


"marrying out"? I don't know where your extensive network is, but I don't think your equation, Muslim man non-Muslim woman, is the norm at all. And I've lived in half a dozen Muslim communities around the country, big and small.[/quote]

Don't be so easily offended. There is a difference between born Muslims and converts and their perspectives often differ because of that difference. It's not about superiority, it just is.

To clarify, I mentioned that because converts often state that they would never marry out, and they do so because they have a stake in maintaining legitimacy within their newfound community. For many born Muslims in the west, we just don't have that test. When your heritage is Muslim, and you're surrounded by Muslims all of your life, you simply don't have the same hesitation to move outside of your realm for fear of losing your legitiamacy or place in the community.

I've lived in dozens around the world, and it is what I see over and over. I don't dismiss what I see. If you don't see it, then this thread is of no value to you.  Thank you for posting.

Salaam[/QUOTE]

Oh, I wasn't offended, nor should you judge whether this post is of value to me. However, the tone of your comments is such that it feels as if you have some sort of better or more insightful perspective, and it's annoying, but not uncommon among the Muslims who grew up here. Islam is not a heritage issue, it is a choice each person-who either comes of age or adult who learns of it–makes to follow or not. Even if you are "born into" Islam, you still have made a choice to practice it daily in your life. I happened to have chosen it as soon as I learned about it. Maybe it's more precious to me because I know the difference it has made in my life as an adult and for you it's a burden you have to bear.
"Marrying out" as you call it, is not about a person's status in the community, it's about how you want your home life to be. Having a non-Muslim spouse, who doesn't believe as you will not be conducive to a harmonious lifestyle if one of you is trying to live a God-centered life and the other isn't or is practicing another faith. Who cares about the community if your home life is crappy?
If you love Allah and believe in His messengers, His angels, His books, you believe in the Last day and His power over all things, and your spouse has a different perspective and faith practices, i.e., Christ is God, your sins are forgiven through Christ, etc.,  how are you to be a faithful Muslim while your spouse is believing something so different? And how do you raise your kids? How confused will they be?
When my faith waivers, when I am discouraged, my husband is there with the same beliefs I am struggling with, ready with reminders of Allah, ready to pull me back to the surface; and I am there for him in the same manner and most importantly, we are both there for our children with a solid belief system.
The purpose of marriage is family. Sorry, but that's the reality, otherwise you can find companionship in many ways, "out or in".
Thank you for posting.
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 31, 2007 - 5:57PM #16
Miraj
Posts: 5,021
Oh, I wasn't offended, nor should you judge whether this post is of value to me. However, the tone of your comments is such that it feels as if you have some sort of better or more insightful perspective, and it's annoying, but not uncommon among the Muslims who grew up here.

You said you found my comments insulting.  I used the word offended.  If my annoyance with the easily insulted was betrayed by my words, than you got the drift of how I read your post.  There's always one convert who is insulted/offended by the observation that there are differences between converts and born Muslims.  I guess you're it, this time. 

BTW, I didn't grow up here.

Islam is not a heritage issue, it is a choice each person-who either comes of age or adult who learns of it–makes to follow or not. Even if you are "born into" Islam, you still have made a choice to practice it daily in your life. I happened to have chosen it as soon as I learned about it. Maybe it's more precious to me because I know the difference it has made in my life as an adult and for you it's a burden you have to bear.

Praise God that you found Islam!  I have no issue with being born into it either.  The bottom line is, there are differences in perspection between born Muslims and converts.  It's really easy to notice if you're not a convert, and there is no reason for you to lecture me on why you became a Muslim.    I am not responsible for your sensitivity to the issue.  Islam is my heritage, and it's no burden for me.  This entire exchange would not be necessary if you weren't carrying some sort of burden of your own.

"Marrying out" as you call it, is not about a person's status in the community, it's about how you want your home life to be. Having a non-Muslim spouse, who doesn't believe as you will not be conducive to a harmonious lifestyle if one of you is trying to live a God-centered life and the other isn't or is practicing another faith. Who cares about the community if your home life is crappy?

Crappy people have crappy homelives, as many divorced Muslims can tell you.  I know many Muslims who married out and have fine home lives.  You have simplistic ideas about marrying in, as if all Muslims have happy marriage if they marry another Muslim. 

No way you can convince me that most converts aren't sold on marrying in as part and parcel of being accepted into their community, no matter what other ideals come alog with it.

If you love Allah and believe in His messengers, His angels, His books, you believe in the Last day and His power over all things, and your spouse has a different perspective and faith practices, i.e., Christ is God, your sins are forgiven through Christ, etc., how are you to be a faithful Muslim while your spouse is believing something so different? And how do you raise your kids? How confused will they be?
When my faith waivers, when I am discouraged, my husband is there with the same beliefs I am struggling with, ready with reminders of Allah, ready to pull me back to the surface; and I am there for him in the same manner and most importantly, we are both there for our children with a solid belief system.
The purpose of marriage is family. Sorry, but that's the reality, otherwise you can find companionship in many ways, "out or in".
Thank you for posting.[/quote]

If you haven't been married out, don't be so condesending about it.  I have been and it wasn't at all as you imagine. My daughter is a Muslim, and not at all confused.  If you raise your kids in a non-Muslim country, they have every chance to be confused.  Heck, even Muslims raised among Muslims don't always stay Muslim.

God made you Muslim, and, as someone who wasn't always Muslim, you know He can make born Muslims into non-Muslims, even if both parents are the same faith.  Prejudice against mixed marriages based on the fallacy that marrying in automatically makes you invulnerable to doubt and spiritual estrangment is foolish.  There are a lot of divorced Muslims who can tell you that is so.

Salaam
Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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7 years ago  ::  Dec 31, 2007 - 7:18PM #17
GraceSA
Posts: 1,100
[QUOTE=endgame;176539]The reason I would not do it is because in my opinion I do not believe that it is allowed for men or women in islam to marry outside of our faith. I feel that the People of the Book that are referred to in the Quran were also muslim because they followed the way of the prophets that preceded Mohammad (peace be upon him). It is only when they strayed from the right path when they started calling themselves Jews or Christians. That is just my feeling on it though.

Do men do it for greencards?
I think there is enough of a muslim population in the US and other western countries where men can find muslim women to give them greencards so I do not buy that excuse anymore either.

As far as strereotyping is concerned, I agree that being a westerner does not equate to being promiscuous in any way. There are plenty of non-muslims who are not that way and plenty within the muslim community that are.[/QUOTE]

I understand most people believe women shouldn't marry out.  However, the VAST majority of Christians were already trinitarian and accepting Jesus as god at the time of the Prophetl. The council of Nicea in Three hundred whatever AD had already decided that.  Allah knew this and still granted the exception.

Oh,  And ABSOLUTLY men still do it for greencards.  There are not enough Muslim women citizens allowed to marry as they wish (non arranged by their families) to fill the needs of men without greencards.

Salaam,
Grace
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 31, 2007 - 8:46PM #18
GraceSA
Posts: 1,100
I"m actually really lucky.  If my husband had been a greencard seeker, I'd not have known the difference.  I was really naive in some ways.

Of course, somedays I wish he had been.....then we'd be living in the States instead of Saudi :)

Salaam,
Grace
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7 years ago  ::  Jan 01, 2008 - 3:50AM #19
Atsila
Posts: 207
[QUOTE=USMuslim;176225]You have got to be kidding me! It's folks like you that make the rest of us look bad to the world. It's the mentality of "Us against Them" that has caused so much trouble in the world. Follow the example of the Prophet, peace be upon him, and you won't be writing trash like that.
When you look at the men who come to study or work in the US, often when they involve with American women it's because there are simply more non-Muslim women around, non-Muslim women aren't bound by Islamic norms such as shyness or modesty. If you are a twenty-something Muslim man from some other country, away from your family and friends, and there are girls everywhere, dressed in ways you could never imagine, behaving in ways you could never imagine...and you have no experience in dealing with them growing up (like Endgame did as an American Muslim), how well will you handle it?
[/QUOTE]

I don't think endgame was promoting the idea, just saying that it is one reason and I also believe this.  It's the same sort of idea as the Black man, white woman thing back in the mid 1900s.  And, Lee Ann, in this case, sex is about power and domination.

And, goodness, maybe I took this the wrong way, but not all non-muslims are ignorant of shyness and modesty.  Can we not generalize ALL non-muslims and/or Americans?  Also, how should someone handle this?  Um, I don't know, maybe how their religion taught them?  But, no, I am not denying that many people who come to this country have problems fitting in or they get caught up in how those around them behave and want to join in to be part of the group.  Having said that, if they had a truly islamic (speaking only for muslims here) upbringing, they know right from wrong and no matter what others are doing, they know they shouldn't and don't have to play along. 

And I know it sounds like I am contradicting myself, although I am not, but what's with some girls dressing sleazy at a younger and younger age?  I was in a dressing room one time and there was this girl who tried on this pair of jeans; she was around 10 years old.  The mom told her to turn around and the girl whined and didn't want to turn around (for the mom to see her butt).  The mother then said 'TURN AROUND' and the girl turned around.  The mother said 'no, they're too tight.  Take them off'.  I just wanted to applaud the mother for having some common sense!  So, thankfully, there are still some parents out there who are interested in raising their kids. 

wassalam,
Atsila
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7 years ago  ::  Jan 01, 2008 - 3:53AM #20
Atsila
Posts: 207
[QUOTE=Miraj;176305]II'm not a convert and don't see the world thru convert eyes in that marriage is not about reaffirming our Muslimness as it is for many converts. 
Salaam[/QUOTE]

I'm a convert and I have no idea what you are talking about.  Please explain.

wassalam
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