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6 years ago  ::  Dec 12, 2007 - 1:39AM #21
GraceSA
Posts: 1,100
((We tend to forget the laws of the Qur'an, or just fit the situation into our lives, kind of like skirting around the real answers. )))

Sounds like a lecture before you teach us all what we are supposed to remember.  We are not your students here.  Please.  Just say, -this is what I think and why!
Grace
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 15, 2007 - 10:33AM #22
Miraj
Posts: 5,023
Your intended should not convert to please your parents,

His becoming a Muslim under any circumstances will not grant you security.

A 26 year old woman who cannot make decisions for herself regarding whom she will marry and how is not ready for marriage.

No where in the Quran or the the Prophet's Sunnah did Allah command Muslim women to limit themselves to marriage with Muslim men. 

No where in the Quran or Sunnah did Allah prohibit in marriage to women those that He did not prohibit in marriage to men,  No Muslim is allowed to marry a polytheist (mushrik) or those who fight against Islam (kuffar).

If Ahl al kitab are polytheists and/or kafir, then they are haram to both Muslim men and Muslim women.

If they are neither mushrikeen nor Kuffar, we are allowed to marry them.

I am so sick of this perversion of Islam against God and women continuing to be prepetrated in His Holy Name,  It is shameful to us that we still fail in our ability to distinquish His Word from our flaws as divisive human beings with limited perspectives. 

However much you revere the early scholars, those who originally determined that Muslim women cannot marry outside the faith did not think much of women, did not respect non-Muslims, and did not take into consideration the words of God.  They were simply protecting their own turf and culture, and using God to do so.  That we answer to Allah, andnot scholars or websites is something we must ALWAYS keep in mind.

Misogyny toward women is a legacy we need to strive to over come, not seek to enbed in the practice of future generations.

Salaam
Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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6 years ago  ::  Dec 15, 2007 - 12:22PM #23
hajali
Posts: 288
[QUOTE=Miraj;140995]Your intended should not convert to please your parents,

His becoming a Muslim under any circumstances will not grant you security.

A 26 year old woman who cannot make decisions for herself regarding whom she will marry and how is not ready for marriage.

No where in the Quran or the the Prophet's Sunnah did Allah command Muslim women to limit themselves to marriage with Muslim men. 

No where in the Quran or Sunnah did Allah prohibit in marriage to women those that He did not prohibit in marriage to men,  No Muslim is allowed to marry a polytheist (mushrik) or those who fight against Islam (kuffar).

If Ahl al kitab are polytheists and/or kafir, then they are haram to both Muslim men and Muslim women.

If they are neither mushrikeen nor Kuffar, we are allowed to marry them.

.........
Salam ALL
To resolve this issue we must consider this question:

A pigeon bird  participates his female  in the custody their the eggs, while  the Cock of the chicken   never   participates in the custody with his female, never. 

The question is: - - why is this difference behavior and these are two types of birds and it must be noted that these types exist very long in full harmony and stay on the type and behavior has not changed.

I think if we can find an answer to this question we have to understand the strength of curator ship men on women.

This by and from the other side that it is wise to be the leader of each group has the power to the leadership of this group's confidence and capacity and take full responsibility competently and wisdom and the ability to implement the law of God with respect to the group is the same, including himself.

Where is the wisdom of one of the people government is even life and the progress of peace as much as possible. And this is in the nature of group existence and is the nature of human beings live.

So, leave allllll what was of discussion and try please to answer this question IF you have any.

salam
.
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 16, 2007 - 8:51AM #24
Miraj
Posts: 5,023
His becoming a Muslim under any circumstances will not grant you security.

A 26 year old woman who cannot make decisions for herself regarding whom she will marry and how is not ready for marriage.

No where in the Quran or the the Prophet's Sunnah did Allah command Muslim women to limit themselves to marriage with Muslim men.

No where in the Quran or Sunnah did Allah prohibit in marriage to women those that He did not prohibit in marriage to men, No Muslim is allowed to marry a polytheist (mushrik) or those who fight against Islam (kuffar).

If Ahl al kitab are polytheists and/or kafir, then they are haram to both Muslim men and Muslim women.

If they are neither mushrikeen nor Kuffar, we are allowed to marry them.

Posting this did not require analogies about birds as a response. Humans are not birds. If they were, I could also cite the penquin. Male penquins grasp their eggs between they feet and shuffle together in large groups to try to keep warm during violent snow storms in below freezing weather while incubating their future progeny. They do not eat, they barely sleep. This goes on for weeks. It is a life and death situation for the males and their eggs.

Meanwhile, the females have laid their eggs and are off fishing and eating.

Are Muslim women capable of autonomy, or did Allah create them to be lead by Muslim males? Do we worship a God that favors maleness, male intelligence and are we expected, in Islam, to be bird brained, driven by instinct?  These are questions to ponder.  If females are useless unless lead by men, then let's call a spade a spade and give up the fascade about Islam respecting women as spiritual equals, and judging them on their own merits.  Let's admit that Islam creates helpless women, and that maleness is he measurable norm of the faith.

For those among us who don't identify with birds, but with the Word, instead, nothing is to be found from God that requires Muslim women to mate only with Muslim men, born or converted to please one's parents. We know that being with a Muslim man is no guarantee of security, We know that making adult decisions can bring you into conflict with selfish parents. We know that if Christians and Jews were mushrikeen and kuffar, no Muslim, male nor female, would be correct to marry them.

I prefer reality to conjecture and God's directives to the flawed reasoning of men. Somehow, mortal reasoning always gives Muslim men an unrealistic superior position over all others. Even brand new Muslim male reverts are wiser leaders than born and raised Muslim women. Say the shahada, get married, and POOF! instant confident leader of the family. Funny, how that happens.

Salaam
Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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6 years ago  ::  Dec 16, 2007 - 8:51AM #25
Miraj
Posts: 5,023
His becoming a Muslim under any circumstances will not grant you security.

A 26 year old woman who cannot make decisions for herself regarding whom she will marry and how is not ready for marriage.

No where in the Quran or the the Prophet's Sunnah did Allah command Muslim women to limit themselves to marriage with Muslim men.

No where in the Quran or Sunnah did Allah prohibit in marriage to women those that He did not prohibit in marriage to men, No Muslim is allowed to marry a polytheist (mushrik) or those who fight against Islam (kuffar).

If Ahl al kitab are polytheists and/or kafir, then they are haram to both Muslim men and Muslim women.

If they are neither mushrikeen nor Kuffar, we are allowed to marry them.

Posting this did not require analogies about birds as a response. Humans are not birds. If they were, I could also cite the penquin. Male penquins grasp their eggs between they feet and shuffle together in large groups to try to keep warm during violent snow storms in below freezing weather while incubating their future progeny. They do not eat, they barely sleep. This goes on for weeks. It is a life and death situation for the males and their eggs.

Meanwhile, the females have laid their eggs and are off fishing and eating.

Are Muslim women capable of autonomy, or did Allah create them to be lead by Muslim males? Do we worship a God that favors maleness, male intelligence and are we expected, in Islam, to be bird brained, driven by instinct?  These are questions to ponder.  If females are useless unless lead by men, then let's call a spade a spade and give up the fascade about Islam respecting women as spiritual equals, and judging them on their own merits.  Let's admit that Islam creates helpless women, and that maleness is he measurable norm of the faith.

For those among us who don't identify with birds, but with the Word, instead, nothing is to be found from God that requires Muslim women to mate only with Muslim men, born or converted to please one's parents. We know that being with a Muslim man is no guarantee of security, We know that making adult decisions can bring you into conflict with selfish parents. We know that if Christians and Jews were mushrikeen and kuffar, no Muslim, male nor female, would be correct to marry them.

I prefer reality to conjecture and God's directives to the flawed reasoning of men. Somehow, mortal reasoning always gives Muslim men an unrealistic superior position over all others. Even brand new Muslim male reverts are wiser leaders than born and raised Muslim women. Say the shahada, get married, and POOF! instant confident leader of the family. Funny, how that happens.

Salaam
Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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6 years ago  ::  Dec 16, 2007 - 1:22PM #26
hajali
Posts: 288
[QUOTE=Miraj;142879]His becoming a Muslim under any circumstances will not grant you security.

A 26 year old woman who cannot make decisions for herself regarding whom she will marry and how is not ready for marriage.

No where in the Quran or the the Prophet's Sunnah did Allah command Muslim women to limit themselves to marriage with Muslim men.

No where in the Quran or Sunnah did Allah prohibit in marriage to women those that He did not prohibit in marriage to men, No Muslim is allowed to marry a polytheist (mushrik) or those who fight against Islam (kuffar).

If Ahl al kitab are polytheists and/or kafir, then they are haram to both Muslim men and Muslim women.

If they are neither mushrikeen nor Kuffar, we are allowed to marry them.

Posting this did not require analogies about birds as a response. Humans are not birds. If they were, I could also cite the penquin. Male penquins grasp their eggs between they feet and shuffle together in large groups to try to keep warm during violent snow storms in below freezing weather while incubating their future progeny. They do not eat, they barely sleep. This goes on for weeks. It is a life and death situation for the males and their eggs.

Meanwhile, the females have laid their eggs and are off fishing and eating.

Are Muslim women capable of autonomy, or did Allah create them to be lead by Muslim males? Do we worship a God that favors maleness, male intelligence and are we expected, in Islam, to be bird brained, driven by instinct?  These are questions to ponder.  If females are useless unless lead by men, then let's call a spade a spade and give up the fascade about Islam respecting women as spiritual equals, and judging them on their own merits.  Let's admit that Islam creates helpless women, and that maleness is he measurable norm of the faith.

For those among us who don't identify with birds, but with the Word, instead, nothing is to be found from God that requires Muslim women to mate only with Muslim men, born or converted to please one's parents. We know that being with a Muslim man is no guarantee of security, We know that making adult decisions can bring you into conflict with selfish parents. We know that if Christians and Jews were mushrikeen and kuffar, no Muslim, male nor female, would be correct to marry them.

I prefer reality to conjecture and God's directives to the flawed reasoning of men. Somehow, mortal reasoning always gives Muslim men an unrealistic superior position over all others. Even brand new Muslim male reverts are wiser leaders than born and raised Muslim women. Say the shahada, get married, and POOF! instant confident leader of the family. Funny, how that happens.

Salaam[/QUOTE]
Miraj  // Posting this did not require analogies about birds as a response.

Hajali : I brought an institution  behavior  to learn in the same way we learned how to fly from the birds'   physical  foundation. This behavior is mentioned in the Holy Qur'an:
5:31 Then Allah sent a raven, who scratched the ground, to show him how to hide the shame of his brother.
Comments: this became later on  the whole MAN"S ceremonies of burying dead bodies.
So it is requiring analogies .,  :
 



Miraj  // Humans are not birds.

Hajali : Behaviors are similar  here is  : 6:38 There is not an animal (that lives) on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but (forms part of) communities like you.

:
Miraj  // If they were, I could also cite the penguin. Male penguins grasp their eggs between they feet and shuffle together in large groups to try to keep warm during violent snow storms in below freezing weather while incubating their future progeny. They do not eat, they barely sleep. This goes on for weeks. It is a life and death situation for the males and their eggs.

Hajlai : that's it…,  we have to see why they the pigeon, chickens and penguin do achieve such different behaviors, we have to look for their way of life, and then compare it to ours. I believe this will help us to understand (qawamat alrajul) the man's curator ship.

What I can figure that the male of the pigeon all what to do is to watch  the nest from a near site and to give a warnings of any danger portion come close and that with sudden flying with noise from his wings, passing over the nest.  Here his female in her nest is suppose to worry and stand by for escape.  While the male of the hen the cock as is on land with heavy fly it is not enough to do the caution warning as above but he has to fight the involver (danger ) to keep him away and to keep his family safe. Because his female cant not escape no warrantee. "but the female pigeon can" So this is a logic behavior of protection. I do not know about the penguins.
So, one of the reasons of sharing/not sharing the "nursing " was;  a concept of way of protection of surviving.

now bring this to the human been, " one of the head of the family must take the JOB" the male or the female.
Now;   who is fit to the job and  you strongly  thing will handle the portion of  protect one  the other male or the female?
Protect from sequences dangers.
* Physical dangers.
* Needs dangers ( financing).
* Mentally  dangers .( affecting emotional  accidents).
Pls vote for above and give it points 
I am talking about protection portion there are other portions to be mentioned like
One will be the follower to other whom will be the "leader".
That is matter of responsibility, credibility, of building a family. Man can have 4 wives  one will aid the other. One with kids the other with wisdom, no3 with refreshes and all are suppose to live happily,  positively, and naturally (as what the chickens do)
I do not thing that any conscious person will agree the female to have more that one husband.   Point (2) for the male.
Man (Adam (SAW)) came first then followed with EVE (SAW) and is "part" of Adam ,,, part never cover (contain) the whole while whole can cover (contain)the part, another point to the male. Hold have enclose surround include be full of  control and restrain. These are the   faces of the "contain" one more point.
Responsibility never indicate for priority never.  It is heavy duty, over charge, it is chargeable.

If you see any INTERESTING I WILL CONTINUE TOMORROW  you can ask me to cut off.

salam
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 17, 2007 - 12:12AM #27
Miraj
Posts: 5,023
It amazes me how often I need to remind Muslims about how the Prophet's first wife, Khadija was:

much older than her husband

much wealthier than her husband

was his employer

held a higher social status than her husband

was his only wife for 25 years

financed his mission as a Prophet

She was his qawaam

Nothing in Islam made Khadijah secondary or subordinate to her husband. She was indeed his partner.

Man (Adam (SAW)) came first then followed with EVE (SAW) and is "part" of Adam ,,, part never cover (contain) the whole while whole can cover (contain)the part, another point to the male. Hold have enclose surround include be full of control and restrain. These are the faces of the "contain" one more point.

Have you ever been a Christian, because Islam doesn't teach that Hawa was part of Adam, only that they were created of a single soul and of LIKE NATURE. Men and women, being of like nature, are equal before God, in spirituality and responsibility toward each other and toward Him. Allah says:

9:71: The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil: they observe regular prayers, practise regular charity, and obey God and His Apostle. On them will God pour His mercy: for God is Exalted in power, Wise.

33:35: For Muslim men and women,- for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in God's praise,- for them has God prepared forgiveness and great reward.

Hajali, I believe that your culture forms your views of gender relations more than Islam does. In Islam, no one suffers for the sins of another, nor are they rewarded for the good acts of another. We are each responsible for what we do and believe. Sadly, cultural norms re the views and treatment of women in the Muslim world reflects little positive re Islam and the history and example of the early ummah. If it did, we would not be having this disagreement.

Salaam
Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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6 years ago  ::  Dec 17, 2007 - 9:18AM #28
USMuslim
Posts: 167
I find HajAli's posts so poorly written that it practically impossible to understand his point. I would suggest leaving off the auto translating program and reply in broken English rather than the non-sensical translations.
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 17, 2007 - 1:51PM #29
hajali
Posts: 288
Miraj  //  Have you ever been a Christian,
Hajali: I am "Christian"  I am "Jew " of what my Islam told me.  so, I am Muslim. 

Miraj //  because Islam doesn't teach that Hawa was part of Adam
Hjjali : Adam was first.

Miraj, only that they were created of a single soul and of LIKE NATURE. Men and women, being of like nature,
Hajali : 4:1 O MANKIND! Be conscious of your Sustainer, who has created you out of one living entity, and out of it created its mate,……….
4:1 O mankind! Be careful of your duty to your Lord Who created you from a single soul and from it created its mate……
The living entity/ single soul is to be ADAM (SAW) .

Miraj //   are equal before God, in spirituality and responsibility toward each other and toward Him. Allah says:
Hajali : no single doubt about this.


9:71: The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil: they observe regular prayers, practise regular charity, and obey God and His Apostle. On them will God pour His mercy: for God is Exalted in power, Wise.

Commenys : obey Allah and His Apostle : listen what the Apostle of Allah says:
1- Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar
Allah's Apostle said, "Surely! Everyone of you is a guardian and is responsible for his charges: The Imam (ruler) of the people is a guardian and is responsible for his subjects; a man is the guardian ofhis family (household) and is responsible for his subjects; a woman is the guardian of her husband's home and of his children and is responsible for them; and the slave of a man is a guardian of his master's property and is responsible for it. Surely, everyone of you is a guardian and responsible for his charges."
2-   Volume 6, Book 60, Number 9:
Narrated Ibn Abbas:
The Prophet said, "Allah said, 'The son of Adam tells a lie against me though he has no right to do so, and he abuses Me though he has no right to do so. As for his telling a lie against Me, it is that he claims that I cannot recreate him as I created him before; and as for his abusing Me, it is his statement that I have offspring. No! Glorified be Me! I am far from taking a wife or offspring.' "
Comments ; do you see? The son of Adam (the humans ) men and women are the son of Adam. HE is the originating person.
So many of these indications but you yet want to admit to take it. Your ego does want it but it is a creditable fact .



33:35: For Muslim men and women,- for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in God's praise,- for them has God prepared forgiveness and great reward.

Miraj  // Hajali, I believe that your culture forms your views of gender relations more than Islam does. In Islam, no one suffers for the sins of another, nor are they rewarded for the good acts of another. We are each responsible for what we do and believe. Sadly, cultural norms re the views and treatment of women in the Muslim world reflects little positive re Islam and the history and example of the early ummah. If it did, we would not be having this disagreement.

You are telling me things are so clear to any of ordinary Muslim, and Iam trying to bring you the logic of leadership. You ingnored my request of (giving points) by ignoring the whole issue,
IT SEEMS TO BE YOU DO NOT WANT TO UNDERSTAND BUT WHAT YOUR OWN 'CONCEPT' YOUR VERY OWN CONCEPT.
Better I stop argue.

salam
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 17, 2007 - 3:34PM #30
NickV
Posts: 2
Dear Hajali,

Hjjali : "Adam was first."  My response is, Never buy a new model. Always wait until the second version comes out, based on the original, but in which most of the defects and bugs of the original will hopefully have been corrected.

More seriously, do you not think that all this "man is superior" talk belongs to an age when most people were in occupations (agriculture, mining, military) where brute strength was the most important qualification, and intelligence and empathy secondary?  Now that hardly anybody in advanced countries needs to be physically strong, women compete on equal footing with men (and they are winning....).
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