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7 years ago  ::  Dec 07, 2007 - 3:55AM #11
GraceSA
Posts: 1,100
((A Christian or a Jewish woman marrying a Muslim man would be expected eventually to accept Islam, while the possibility of a Muslim woman changing her faith to that of her husband is very likely. ))

That is just plain insulting and very demeaning towards women.  I would never listen to one word a Sheikh with these sort of anit-women attitudes, would have to say.  His foundations are rotten, rotten, rotten.

I bet he makes other speaches about how Islam treats women better than any other faith.  Disgusting.  And women are sick of it, and will marry out more and more as a result.  I firmly believe these anti women beliefs are just as damaging to the souls of men as they are to women.  But women pay the price on this earth.

Salaam,
Grace
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2007 - 10:55AM #12
The-middle-way
Posts: 250
[QUOTE=GraceSA;122401]((A Christian or a Jewish woman marrying a Muslim man would be expected eventually to accept Islam, while the possibility of a Muslim woman changing her faith to that of her husband is very likely. ))

That is just plain insulting and very demeaning towards women.[/QUOTE]

In the verse in which Allah forbade men and women from marrying non-Muslims, Allah gives the reason for this prohibition saying that the non-believers beckon to the fire.

In another verse, Allah made an exception for the Muslim men to marry women of the ahle kithab.

Now what would be the logical conclusion for Allah allowing the men such an exception, and not the women?

If the reason for the prohibition is because the non-beleivers beckon towards the fire, then the logical conclusion here has to be that Muslim men are not as susceptible to the women of the ahle-kithab as the Muslim women [due to their role] would be susceptible to the men of the ahle-kithab [with the exception for a minority maybe]

Thus we can see that the Shaykhs above explanation, is only in conformity with the basic logical conclusion that is to be derived from the relevant  Quranic verses.

So the question now will be; is Allah insulting and demeaning towards the women as well?

Or is this just a 'difference in role, but both equall in the sight of Allah, except in piety ' issue?

Salaam.
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2007 - 12:24PM #13
Atsila
Posts: 207
It is so amusing to see how scholars try to justify their faulty logic.  Do they really think they are fooling people?  Well, I guess they are in some cases...

wassalam,
Atsila
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2007 - 2:16PM #14
GraceSA
Posts: 1,100
((((The answer to this question is that, women are somewhat weak and emotional by nature. Then the husband has been given a caretaking and controlling role over the wife. As such, it is very likely that the Muslim wife may fall prey and become impressed with her husband’s faith. The chances of the husband becoming affected by his wife’s faith are remote, thus the difference between the two situations is clear.)))))

That is total bull$#&.

(((((Moreover, by marrying a Christian or a Jewish man, the status of the Muslim wife would be affected, for the wife normally takes the nationality and status given by her husband’s law.)))))

Nationality is determined by national laws.  Interestingly, in Judaism, children get their "Jewish" status from their mother.

SInce in no way do I think your explanations represent Islam, then no, Allah is not insulting and demeaning  towards women.  Just a bunch of 2-bit male "scholars" are.

Grace
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2007 - 5:05PM #15
AniMari
Posts: 8
haha- I have been reading this forum for 4 years, and have never posted twice in the same week!  But I keep seeing the same issue popping up- inter-faith relationships- and I like offering my P.O.V.

So, I am not muslim, married to a born-muslim and we have been together for....almost 5 years now. My opinion on the following quote:

"The answer to this question is that, women are somewhat weak and emotional by nature. Then the husband has been given a caretaking and controlling role over the wife. As such, it is very likely that the Muslim wife may fall prey and become impressed with her husband’s faith. The chances of the husband becoming affected by his wife’s faith are remote, thus the difference between the two situations is clear"

I could only laugh.  Seriously, of course this depends on the particular two people involved in the relationship, but let me tell you: I have taken classes on Islam, I have read most of the Qu'ran, and I know lots of great muslim people.....and I am still not converting.  Similarly, my husband almost knows more about Christianity than I do, he's been to church with me once or twice, he likes my family, and has tons of christian, hindu, buddhist friends and he isn't in danger of converting either. 

We seem to collect mixed-marriage couples as friends, and out of that large group, there are four of us that are/were mixed christian-muslim couples.  One couple is basically not religious and so their differences aren't a problem; the next couple..the woman has now converted from catholocism to islam, but from my outside view, I'd say the conversion seems to be in name only..certaintly her clothes and lifestyle have not changed at all.  Their children are raised as muslims, but not strictly-adhering muslims.  The couple seems completely blissful together.; I've already explained how my husband and I live, and we have no children yet; the last couple.....the man is muslim but is basically not-religious....his wife is christian, they have two kids, and they celebrate christmas, have christmas trees and presents, and sometimes the kids go to a christian church, although the kids say they are not really religious either and the kids feel a strong tie to the dad's home country.  The whole family visits the dad's home country several times a year.

So, in none of these situation is there one person who seems to be exerting tons of pressure on the other spouse.  Does it happen?  Of course it does. 

But I'm writing this so everyone can see that it often times doesn't happen and two different people can live in harmony together.  It is true that there are some common factors in all of the relationships I just described.  We are all highly educated (all have college degrees, about half have masters or higher), we are all middle-upper middle class, we all come from families who were educated and middle to upper-middle class....so that probably influences the way we live our lives. 

But it is possible in this day and age for a woman and a man to live as equals....it's just that both partners have to have the view-point that women and men ARE equals.

My P.O.V.  =)
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 09, 2007 - 3:14AM #16
harith70
Posts: 7
[QUOTE=snoopy;102658]I guess I'm just writing here to vent a little.  I was raised Muslim...we weren't raised religiously at all, infact, my mom is the only one that practices Islam.
I know that Islam is not about this.  Religion should not be about these stupid rules.  It should be a personal relationship with whatever you believe in.  [/QUOTE]
=================================================================
=================================================================
Snoopy,snoopy
Answer these questions:
1.What do you mean by you weren't raised religously at all?
2.haven't you ever prayed or fast ramadan,even once in your life.
3.how about celebrating the eids for example.
      "i'm amazed with the term i was raised as a muslim!!!!"


4.from where you know that islam is not about this?
5.and who told you that islam is not about this?
       " if islam doesnt regulate and take care of muslim life,his creed and his future,then what religion should be about?
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 10, 2007 - 10:33PM #17
USMuslim
Posts: 167
Leave all the political questions aside regarding a woman marrying outside of her faith and just consider your beliefs and your faith in God. I am a woman who married my Muslim husband, as a non-Muslim. He had only one requirement of me and that was that the children would be raised as Muslims, it was a total deal breaker, no negotiating that issue. Up until we had children, he respectfully celebrated Christmas with me and my family and all that. However, we did not have a happy marriage for the first three years. He was not practicing Islam, he was not happy with himself and I was living without any religion and searching desperately for solace. Once our daughter was born, something came alive in his heart towards Allah. He realized he had a responsibility toward that little girl and he began to be a Muslim father. And guess what? I saw this man grow more peaceful, happier, and full of faith. I had to find out what it was and soon, Allah turned my heart and I am a happy, practicing Muslim. We have been married fifteen years and have three happy, Muslim kids. My son from a previous marriage converted to Islam and recently got married to a girl he knew and taught Islam to and she is a practicing Muslim.
Forget about your parents and what they did or didn't do. This is about you and your relationship with Allah. See how confused you are now? Your family wasn't strong in faith practice and see how ambivalent you are! If you water your faith down any further, it won't be there for your children at all. Can you imagine growing up without your faith? Don't take whatever your parents did give you in terms of faith practices and certainly don't give away the greatest gift God gave you, Islam. 
Take this nice man by the hand and say, "let's explore my faith together, let's learn if this is the way we both can travel, together." Don't look at fatwas and fiqh, look for the truth and beauty that is so easily found if your hearts are open.
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 11, 2007 - 9:37PM #18
msdeebro
Posts: 68
Assalamu Alaikum All!!

I will not comment on these posts as many have followed their own hearts and ways about mixed marriages and marriage.

The answer that I was listening for was: The reason that a muslimah cannot marry a non-muslim man is 'OBEDIENCE TO THE COMMAND OF ALLAH!. We tend to forget the laws of the Qur'an, or just fit the situation into our lives, kind of like skirting around the real answers.

When a Muslimah marries a non-Muslim, these are some of the things that will/may happen: [From experience as a Counselor, and teacher in Islam]

1. The marriage is first null-and-void. As the Qur'an states:“And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigor, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed. And marry such of you as are solitary and the pious of your slaves and maid servants. If they be poor; Allah will enrich them of His bounty. Allah is of ample means, Aware.” (An-Nur: 30-31)

2. A Muslimah should NOT be dating in the first place. This is also forbidden.  In Qur'an:“And whoever of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those (slaves) whom your right hands possess, and Allaah has full knowledge about your Faith; you are one from another. Wed them with the permission of their own folk (guardians, Awliyaa’ or masters) and give them their Mahr according to what is reasonable; they (the above said slave-girls) should be chaste, not committing illegal sex, nor taking boyfriends”

[al-Nisa’ 4:25]

3. As a Muslimah with a non-Muslim husband, she would be subjected to his way of thinking and belief. She will not be able to teach her kids  about the Prophets and Allah, because they do not believe the same. He will be able to continue doing what HIS religion/or no religion guides him to do. Even if he is a good person and would not interfere with her religious beliefs, it is still forbidden. If there are children, they will follow the faith of the father. [There are so many arguments of the heart on this matter as well as the "what if's". The bottom line is ALLAH KNOWS BEST! That is why it is forbidden, He knows what is best for the Muslimah even if her heart says otherwise.
ALSO:Al-musaafihaat (translated here as “committing illegal sex”) means women who fornicate or commit adultery, who commit immoral actions. As for taking boyfriends, this refers to women who make friends with men and take them as close friends, as Ibn ‘Abbaas and others among the salaf said. [See: Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 2/261].

4. When we really understand that we as Muslimah's should not put ourselves in compromising situations dealing with the heart and emotions, it is then that we will fully understand what it is that Allah wants for us. By NOT putting ourselves in these situations, we would not have to be torn between our families, and our happiness.

Story: A sister was engaged for 11 years an truly loved her fiance. BUT, she was searching for God in her life and found Islam. Through hard study, and all the right questions, Allah chose her for Islam and she readily accepted. She had learned that as a muslim she could not date, have a boyfriend, nor marry a non-muslim. Her fiance was supportive, but, now he did not want to get married. He wanted to wait a few more years.

She was torn between her new found faith and her fiance. Her family did not like it because she was Muslim and chose Islam over christianity. They equally gave her a "heart" time. NOW WHAT COULD SHE DO? Her heart was being pulled both ways.

1. If she stayed in Islam she would loose the respect and support of family,
2. She would loose her fiance,
3. She could loose both.

HER DECISION: She chose Islam! She lost he fiance, and the respect and support of her family She ,married twice to Muslims but the marriages did not last long.
So she decided to wait on Allah. Whom she knew would not let her down. Finally Allah sent a Muslim man who fully believed in Islam and Allah. They married and she never loooked back!

That was me! I do look back now sometimes and feel NO regrets. Some of my family eventually came around, but even if they hadn't, I still would choose Islam and a Muslim man to marry. I do believe that had I chose my fiance and my family, they would have dumped me anyway. This I was told by my sister of all people!!

Needless to say: we have to make up our own minds as to which path we should take. The best advice I can give and do give is: "Trust fully in Allah"., follow the rules of religion, and never regret! I have lived to see many of my students have good happy lives, the ones that are unhappy are stuck in a marriage with a non-muslim man, and not practicing Islam. I continue to pray for them and I will pray that you make the right decision with trust in Allah, and faith in your heart that He will guide you through all the rough times and decisions ahead.

Masalams
MsDEE
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 11, 2007 - 11:01PM #19
GraceSA
Posts: 1,100
"Not to take boyfriends" is in quotes, and I know that it is not in the Quran.

((As for taking boyfriends, this refers to women who make friends with men and take them as close friends, as Ibn ‘Abbaas and others among the salaf said.))

Many Muslims follow the Quran and the Sunnah, and not the Salaf.

Many people forget the Prophet's daughter was married to a non-Muslim.

Most people know that faith is what a person believes and does not "come from the father". 

Not everyone believes the prohibition comes from Allah, but from men. It has been discussed in detail MANY times on this forum, and there is no consensus on this matter, but NO ONE is advocating disobeidience to Allah.

-also, dating does not always mean sex.  Dating in public with the intention of finding a spouse makes sense to me.


Salaam,
Grace
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 12, 2007 - 1:32AM #20
Atsila
Posts: 207
God did not forbid muslim women from marrying non-muslims.  God did forbid muslim women AND men from marrying those who are enemies of islam.  This has been discussed many times here and never has anyone proven that the commandment for muslimahs to not marry muslims comes from God.  It just doesn't exist.

wassalam,
Atsila
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