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7 years ago  ::  Nov 29, 2007 - 10:16AM #1
snoopy
Posts: 5
I guess I'm just writing here to vent a little.  I was raised Muslim...we weren't raised religiously at all, infact, my mom is the only one that practices Islam.  Now, I am about to turn 26, in medical school and I've been in a relationship with someone who isn't a Muslim.  My family has known about him for the past 3 years now and he recently proposed to me.  I said yes.  As you all probably know, I'm not "allowed" to do this according to my parents.  He has to convert.  What's amazing to me is that he actually said he would, just to please my parents...not because he actually is a Muslim.  My parents want him to tell everyone...friends, his family, my family that he is no longer Catholic and that he is a Muslim now. They don't want to be embarrased in front of our family.  I think this is so wrong and it's killing me.  I have no issues with him being a different religion-we have discussed this many times and how to raise our children and we always seem to come up with something that we both agree with.  Now, because of all of this with my parents, our relationship is not going too well.  I'm stuck...I don't know what to do.  My parents are making my life a living hell, but I don't show that to them.  I just smile and pretend everything is ok.  My fiance is afraid becuase he feels that this will go on even after we're married.  He always asks me "if your parents don't like how we live our lives and they threaten you again, are you just going to give in again?"  I completely understand how this would worry him.  It would worry me too! I'm 26 years old and I feel like my parents still control me.  I can't stand up to them.  I feel like I'm still in middle school.  I feel like if we go along with this, I'd be living a lie.  I feel so stuck.  I need both my family and my fiance in my life.  I just don't understand how family can threaten to never speak to you again because of something like this.  I feel like that's the most awful thing you can say to someone you love.  I'm so depressed and I feel like I can't look forward to anything anymore.  My parents keep saying that this is for my own good.  That if he converts, it will be a security for me.  They just want to make sure I will be ok in marriage.  Until this day I have no idea how this is going to give me security.  It just makes everything worse.  They say they just want me to be happy...but they are not making me happy and they don't see that.  Everytime I look somewhat sad to them, they think it's b/c of him not them.  I feel like I have three choices.  One, I leave my fiance becuase I can't stand doing this to him, I'd be miserable and probably hate my parents.  Two, I stay with my fiance, he doesn't convert and my family will never speak to me again.  Three, my fiance converts, and I'd be living the rest of my life a lie.  No situation is a good one.
I know that Islam is not about this.  Religion should not be about these stupid rules.  It should be a personal relationship with whatever you believe in.  Anyways, I just needed a place to vent.  I'm sorry if this is too long.
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 29, 2007 - 10:16AM #2
snoopy
Posts: 5
I guess I'm just writing here to vent a little.  I was raised Muslim...we weren't raised religiously at all, infact, my mom is the only one that practices Islam.  Now, I am about to turn 26, in medical school and I've been in a relationship with someone who isn't a Muslim.  My family has known about him for the past 3 years now and he recently proposed to me.  I said yes.  As you all probably know, I'm not "allowed" to do this according to my parents.  He has to convert.  What's amazing to me is that he actually said he would, just to please my parents...not because he actually is a Muslim.  My parents want him to tell everyone...friends, his family, my family that he is no longer Catholic and that he is a Muslim now. They don't want to be embarrased in front of our family.  I think this is so wrong and it's killing me.  I have no issues with him being a different religion-we have discussed this many times and how to raise our children and we always seem to come up with something that we both agree with.  Now, because of all of this with my parents, our relationship is not going too well.  I'm stuck...I don't know what to do.  My parents are making my life a living hell, but I don't show that to them.  I just smile and pretend everything is ok.  My fiance is afraid becuase he feels that this will go on even after we're married.  He always asks me "if your parents don't like how we live our lives and they threaten you again, are you just going to give in again?"  I completely understand how this would worry him.  It would worry me too! I'm 26 years old and I feel like my parents still control me.  I can't stand up to them.  I feel like I'm still in middle school.  I feel like if we go along with this, I'd be living a lie.  I feel so stuck.  I need both my family and my fiance in my life.  I just don't understand how family can threaten to never speak to you again because of something like this.  I feel like that's the most awful thing you can say to someone you love.  I'm so depressed and I feel like I can't look forward to anything anymore.  My parents keep saying that this is for my own good.  That if he converts, it will be a security for me.  They just want to make sure I will be ok in marriage.  Until this day I have no idea how this is going to give me security.  It just makes everything worse.  They say they just want me to be happy...but they are not making me happy and they don't see that.  Everytime I look somewhat sad to them, they think it's b/c of him not them.  I feel like I have three choices.  One, I leave my fiance becuase I can't stand doing this to him, I'd be miserable and probably hate my parents.  Two, I stay with my fiance, he doesn't convert and my family will never speak to me again.  Three, my fiance converts, and I'd be living the rest of my life a lie.  No situation is a good one.
I know that Islam is not about this.  Religion should not be about these stupid rules.  It should be a personal relationship with whatever you believe in.  Anyways, I just needed a place to vent.  I'm sorry if this is too long.
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 29, 2007 - 4:32PM #3
tired1
Posts: 79
Asalamu Aleikum
What you have here is a golden opportunity! Granted family is family , but this young man must be something special. If you needed proof of his intention I think you got it! Now you just need to grow enough to match it. even though you say you don't pratice Islam there must be something in the way you lead your life that has indicated to your husband to be that Islam isn't a bad thing. Give yourself some points for that! And then give yourself some points for integrity. Now, for the growing part. You're going to have to explain in clear but respectiful terms (in a letter even) to your family that they are making you unhappy and that you'll not allow them to behave this way towards you in the future. Explain that you love them and want them in your life, but that if they cannot treat you with love and respect at all times that you'll have to limit the amount you interact with them. Then take your young man , get the shahada said , and get married. If your parents put up a fuss get married without either of the families present (but with witnessess etc.). I think your third option above sells your fiance short...he's a making an adult choice and you should support him. Who knows...maybe it will turn out to be a very good thing for him. And you don't need to feel guilty...you didn't make him do anything and your parents didn't make him do anything..not possible. He looked at the situation, arrived at a solution and is prepared to carry it out. Allah will reward the intention I think. Also consider that your family is doing to you what they are doing because you allow it. You'll have to be stronger about that in the future...but it sounds like you fiance will back you up and its easier to be stronger when you have support.
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 05, 2007 - 1:13PM #4
The-middle-way
Posts: 250
Salaam sis,

Heres the Islamic position on Muslim women marrying non-Muslim men:

In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,

Inter-marriage between Muslims and non-Muslims is something that has been clearly prohibited in the Qur’an and Sunnah, thus not permissible in any way. The only exception to this general rule is the marriage of Muslim men with Christian and Jewish girls, and that also with certain conditions.

Allah Most High says:

“Do not marry unbelieving women until they believe. A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though if she attracts you. And not marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe. A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though if he attracts you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the fire but Allah beckons by His grace to the garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His signs clear to mankind; that they may receive admonition”. (al-Baqarah, 221).

The above verse of the Holy Qur’an along with many other statements of the Qur’an and Sunnah clearly mention the impermissibility of Muslims marrying non-Muslims. Therefore, a marriage between a Muslim and someone from another religion will not be lawful or even valid according to Islam. The exception, however, is mentioned in the following verse:

“(Lawful unto you in marriage are chaste women who are believers and chaste women among the people of the book”. (al-Ma’idah, 5).

Thus, it would be permissible, in principle, for Muslim men to marry women from the people of the book (ahl al-Kitab) namely Christian and Jewish girls. However, this is also subjected to certain conditions, as will be mentioned later.

The reason behind this is that, marital relationships demand mutual love, affection and intimacy and without this, the purpose of marriage is left unfulfilled. If such close relationship of love and intimacy is established with a non-Muslim, it may emotionally incline a Muslim towards disbelief (kufr) or, at least, the abhorrence of Kufr and Shirk may not remain in the heart. Consequently, it may lead one to disbelief and eventually the fire of Hell. This is why Allah Almighty said towards the end of the verse of Surah al-Baqarah quoted above:

“Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the fire but Allah beckons by His grace to the garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His signs clear to mankind; that they may receive admonition”. ( 221). (See: Ma’arif al-Qur’an, 1/ 540).

Therefore, the fear that a Muslim man or woman may well be affected with his/her partner’s religion, thus go on to a path that leads to the fire of hell, is the main cause for this prohibition. Hence, a Muslim woman will not be allowed whatsoever to marry anyone besides a Muslim man, and even if she did, the marriage will not be valid in Islam.

read on:

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp? … 67&CATE=10

ps: If your 'finance' just says the shahadah without really believing it in his heart, and you know that he does not really believe it and is just saying it as a formality so that he can 'convert'  and marry you, then he wont be a true Muslim by saying the shahadah in that way thus the prohibtion of marrying him may still apply to you as he in reality will be a non-Muslim, so you should get this clarified from an Islamic Scholar before you go ahead with such a 'marriage'.
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 05, 2007 - 1:13PM #5
The-middle-way
Posts: 250
Salaam sis,

Heres the Islamic position on Muslim women marrying non-Muslim men:

In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,

Inter-marriage between Muslims and non-Muslims is something that has been clearly prohibited in the Qur’an and Sunnah, thus not permissible in any way. The only exception to this general rule is the marriage of Muslim men with Christian and Jewish girls, and that also with certain conditions.

Allah Most High says:

“Do not marry unbelieving women until they believe. A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though if she attracts you. And not marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe. A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though if he attracts you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the fire but Allah beckons by His grace to the garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His signs clear to mankind; that they may receive admonition”. (al-Baqarah, 221).

The above verse of the Holy Qur’an along with many other statements of the Qur’an and Sunnah clearly mention the impermissibility of Muslims marrying non-Muslims. Therefore, a marriage between a Muslim and someone from another religion will not be lawful or even valid according to Islam. The exception, however, is mentioned in the following verse:

“(Lawful unto you in marriage are chaste women who are believers and chaste women among the people of the book”. (al-Ma’idah, 5).

Thus, it would be permissible, in principle, for Muslim men to marry women from the people of the book (ahl al-Kitab) namely Christian and Jewish girls. However, this is also subjected to certain conditions, as will be mentioned later.

The reason behind this is that, marital relationships demand mutual love, affection and intimacy and without this, the purpose of marriage is left unfulfilled. If such close relationship of love and intimacy is established with a non-Muslim, it may emotionally incline a Muslim towards disbelief (kufr) or, at least, the abhorrence of Kufr and Shirk may not remain in the heart. Consequently, it may lead one to disbelief and eventually the fire of Hell. This is why Allah Almighty said towards the end of the verse of Surah al-Baqarah quoted above:

“Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the fire but Allah beckons by His grace to the garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His signs clear to mankind; that they may receive admonition”. ( 221). (See: Ma’arif al-Qur’an, 1/ 540).

Therefore, the fear that a Muslim man or woman may well be affected with his/her partner’s religion, thus go on to a path that leads to the fire of hell, is the main cause for this prohibition. Hence, a Muslim woman will not be allowed whatsoever to marry anyone besides a Muslim man, and even if she did, the marriage will not be valid in Islam.

read on:

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp? … 67&CATE=10

ps: If your 'finance' just says the shahadah without really believing it in his heart, and you know that he does not really believe it and is just saying it as a formality so that he can 'convert'  and marry you, then he wont be a true Muslim by saying the shahadah in that way thus the prohibtion of marrying him may still apply to you as he in reality will be a non-Muslim, so you should get this clarified from an Islamic Scholar before you go ahead with such a 'marriage'.
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 05, 2007 - 8:24PM #6
Hasna2
Posts: 2
"marital relationships demand mutual love, affection and intimacy and without this, the purpose of marriage is left unfulfilled. If such close relationship of love and intimacy is established with a non-Muslim, it may emotionally incline a Muslim towards disbelief (kufr) or, at least, the abhorrence of Kufr and Shirk may not remain in the heart. Consequently, it may lead one to disbelief and eventually the fire of Hell".

No disrespect intended; however what I understand from this post is that only Muslims go to heaven, and women are not permitted to marry non-Muslims because women are considered weak and unable to sustain /have their own beliefs without a Muslim husband? Hmmm... sounds questionable to me.
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 05, 2007 - 9:41PM #7
sazaj36
Posts: 331
"marital relationships demand mutual love, affection and intimacy and without this, the purpose of marriage is left unfulfilled. If such close relationship of love and intimacy is established with a non-Muslim, it may emotionally incline a Muslim towards disbelief (kufr) or, at least, the abhorrence of Kufr and Shirk may not remain in the heart. Consequently, it may lead one to disbelief and eventually the fire of Hell".

How come that is only supposed to refer to a Muslim girl marrying a non muslim man....are you saying that all muslim men are so strong and secure in their belief in God and their practice of Islam that there is no fear they will sucuumb to the call of the Kafr...but that Muslim women are weak in spirit and in faith and it would take very little to distract them from their belief in God and their practice of Islam and so the call of the Kafr wouldnt have to do much calling in fact? That makes all Muslim women sound like children that need their hand held to keep them safe as they are not mentally capable of seeing dangers or potential emotional hazards for themselves.

Ideas like this make Muslim women want to run away...far far away...straight into the arms of a nonmuslim man...cause if this is how a "true" Muslim man sees her...why the hell would she want one as a life partner? Just a thought.
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 06, 2007 - 11:59AM #8
The-middle-way
Posts: 250
[QUOTE=Hasna2;118729]"marital relationships demand mutual love, affection and intimacy and without this, the purpose of marriage is left unfulfilled. If such close relationship of love and intimacy is established with a non-Muslim, it may emotionally incline a Muslim towards disbelief (kufr) or, at least, the abhorrence of Kufr and Shirk may not remain in the heart. Consequently, it may lead one to disbelief and eventually the fire of Hell".

No disrespect intended; however what I understand from this post is that only Muslims go to heaven, and women are not permitted to marry non-Muslims because women are considered weak and unable to sustain /have their own beliefs without a Muslim husband? Hmmm... sounds questionable to me.[/QUOTE]

Salamualikum sister Hasna and wellcome to the forum!

What ever you may think of the interpretation of the verse by shaykh Ibn Mohammed, it's clear in the Quranic verse that Allah has forbidden Muslim woman to marry non-Muslim men and the reason Allah gave for it is thus:

"...Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the fire but Allah beckons by His grace to the garden (of bliss) and forgiveness..."  (al-Baqarah, 221).

Now all the shaykh did was expand on the interpretation of this verse a bit, and what he said was according to it, for Allah says, "the unbelievers beckon to the fire"; now if you think that a woman is spiritually strong enough not to be lead astray by a non-Muslim husband, yet the fact remains that Allah has forbidden such marriages, thus the prohibition still remains even if a woman thinks she is strong enough not be be lead astray.

I suppose this prohibition can be likened to the prohibition of alcohol in Islam; now the obvious reason that alcohol has been forbidden is because it makes people intoxicated, but if a person says to himself, "I'll only have a tiny drop of alcohol, thus it will be ok to have for me as the tiny drop wont make me intoxicated", do you think the tiny drop of alcohol will be ok for him to have?; ofcourse not as Allah has made alcohol haraam, so likewise, even if a woman is convinced that her faith wont be effected by marrying a non-Muslim man, yet she wont be allowed to as Allah has made such marriages haraam.

Heres the reasons a man can marry the women of the ahle kithab [Jews and Christians]:

Similarly, a Muslim man will not be allowed to marry any non-Muslim girl, such as a Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, or any other non-Muslim woman. However, it will be permissible for him to marry a Christian or a Jewish girl. This is explained in the following section.

Marrying Christian and Jewish girls

As stated previously, Islam has allowed Muslim men to marry women from the people of the book (ahl al-Kitab). This permission is explicitly mentioned in the verse of the Qur’an already quoted:

“(Lawful unto you in marriage are chaste women who are believers and chaste women among the people of the book”. (al-Ma’idah, 5).

However, there are certain points that need to be taken into consideration here:

Firstly, the exception of Christian and Jewish girls is because the difference in belief between the people of the book and Muslims is relatively lesser and lighter as compared with other non-Muslims. They are all monotheistic religions and known as the Abrahamic faiths. The basic difference between Islam and the other two religions is the belief in the last Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace). Therefore, the fear and danger of corruptibility is less as compared to marrying with women from other faiths, thus Islam gave this permission for Muslim men to marry Christian and Jewish girls.

A question may arise here, that if the difference between Muslims and people of the book is considered to be lighter as compared to other faiths, then why is it unlawful for Muslim girls to marry Christian and Jewish men?

The answer to this question is that, women are somewhat weak and emotional by nature. Then the husband has been given a caretaking and controlling role over the wife. As such, it is very likely that the Muslim wife may fall prey and become impressed with her husband’s faith. The chances of the husband becoming affected by his wife’s faith are remote, thus the difference between the two situations is clear.

Moreover, by marrying a Christian or a Jewish man, the status of the Muslim wife would be affected, for the wife normally takes the nationality and status given by her husband’s law. A Christian or a Jewish woman marrying a Muslim man would be expected eventually to accept Islam, while the possibility of a Muslim woman changing her faith to that of her husband is very likely. Therefore, only Muslim men were given this permission of marrying with women from the people of the book.

Secondly, women who are Christians and Jews merely by name, and do not really believe in any religion, like a large number of people in the west, cannot be termed as people of the book (ahl al-Kitab). They are atheist in reality and it will not be permissible for Muslim men to marry them.

Therefore, one must first make sure that the woman is truly a believing Christian or Jew, and then consider contracting marriage with them.

Thirdly, it should be remembered that the meaning of the permission of marrying Christian and Jewish women is simply that, if a marriage contract was performed with them, it would be valid according to Islam and the children born out of this wedlock will be considered legitimate.

However, there are various narrations that establish its undesirability. A Muslim man is advised in the Hadith to select a life partner who fully observes the injunctions of Islam, so that she becomes a means of attaining piety. If that is the case, then marrying Christian and Jewish girls would be disliked.

This is the reason why Sayyiduna Umar ibn al-Khattab (Allah be pleased with him) prevented many such marriages in his lifetime because of what he had seen of the corruption that resulted in Iraq and Syria. (See: Muhammad ibn al-Hasan, Kitab al-Athar).

Finally, this permission is only when one is confident that he himself or his children will not be affected by this marriage. In the early days, Muslims were duly equipped with adequate Islamic knowledge and an unshaken commitment towards their religion. As such, there was no risk of the husband being affected by his wife’s religion. Rather, the wife would see the glory of Islam, thus enter into the fold of Islam.

Therefore, if a Muslim male is confident that marriage with a Christian or Jewish girl will have no affect on his and his children’s Islamic identity and commitment, then there is no bar against such marriages. However, if he is not so confident, he must avoid entering into such marriages.

And Allah knows best

Muhammad ibn Adam al-Kawthari
Darul Iftaa, Leicester, UK

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp? … 67&CATE=10

Hope that helps

Salaam.
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 07, 2007 - 2:05AM #9
sazaj36
Posts: 331
So the Muslim man who decides its safe to marry a Christian or Jewish woman and has no fear for his own or his childrens identity etc...apparently assumes his new wife will do nothing at all to make her mark in their relationship...she will do all the changing and conforming and impose nothing of herself or her identity into the marriage...? Am I reading this correctly? She will be a noneity(?)....as if!!
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 07, 2007 - 2:22AM #10
QureshiAbbasAli
Posts: 515
Sister

I would write or call Shaykh Hamza Yusuf @ www.ZayTuna.com or is ORG. i know specifically that he has raised this issue, and has spoken of treating the issue on a case by case basis. it is an issue that has surfaced and will continue to surface over and over again within the Community.

i am not sure how many of the readership here are aware of it - but if there isn't a scholar more traditional than Hamza Yusuf, then i must be showing a light bulb to the sun.

as to the other posts, citing and proving that about "dis-believers" they are/were reference to the pagan arabs and not the People of the Book. this issue has been dealt with extensively. if God can sanction marriage between a muslim Man and a Pagan Woman (according to the literalist definition, since the People of the Book commit worship of God and other than God by ascribing partners), they are missing the distinction between the People of the Book and the arab Pagans addressed in those verses.

also historically, muslim jurists, discouraged muslim men to even marry out-side their faith, due to the abundance of muslim woman, and were also overtly suspicious of the non muslim Other. this mentality has permeated to this day, despite the permission given in chapter 5, which was among one of the last Chapters of the Quran to be revealed.

i gotta go and catch some sleep for now,

with regards, ali.q
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