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Switch to Forum Live View How Can There Be No Goal?
7 years ago  ::  Jan 21, 2011 - 11:16AM #11
peterjohn
Posts: 34
Hi sdp
Long ago I figured it out on my own that any effort to change just further conditions, that change has to happen naturally. Of course easier said then done, even though I felt this way I was still looking to change and then I found Krishnamurti. My experience with Krishnamurti is very short but his vision is very clear while I might have some insight; insight is different from seeing. In regards to your attending his talks, that must have been an amazing experience to be involve in that type of discussion.
Yes it is difficult to understand theoretically and even harder to see. I think we know the answer from insight, I know we know the answer. There is absolutely nothing we can do, all effort is in vain. Even though we know this, we still try to change, I know I do, it is so subtle, so the saying "be your self" is truly is to be awake.
Again you are correct about meditation, I don't even try.
I think our conceptual self cannot be in the present, it's impossible, the conceptual self only exist in movement.
I have to look up mindfulness practices that Buddha recommended, however when I hear practices I usually get turned off, I feel if you understand it completely then it's not a practice. LOL see i have a image of practice which prevents me from looking sometimes, but i will take a look.
Thanks for the post!
Peter
Moderated by RenGalskap on Jan 25, 2011 - 12:09PM
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7 years ago  ::  Jan 21, 2011 - 2:28PM #12
peterjohn
Posts: 34
I just one to add one more thing, since the "I" is the movement of thought because "Self" as you know is made up from a bundle of images which is thought. Any effort to change is the continuity of thought which is "I", so our effort to change deepens the "I", and when there is this type of effort; this effort is a result of a goal to be something or "becoming". So to be your self in the true sense is too stop "becoming" and when there is no "becoming", there is no movement of thought, no movement of thought means no "I". So the solution is there is no solution and that becomes the solution. However as you know seeing is totally different then thinking about it, so what is one to do? Nothing becomes something but in a different sense, so there is still division. I know someone like Krishnamurti did not like the master and student relationship, I can completely understand, the word master has numerous associations associate to that word. However either you find someone who is really is a wake or I feel we have to go through extreme suffering for us to take a look at it.
sdp what is your point of view?
Peter
Moderated by RenGalskap on Jan 25, 2011 - 11:47AM
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7 years ago  ::  Jan 21, 2011 - 8:58PM #13
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,664

Jan 21, 2011 -- 2:28PM, peterjohn wrote:


I just one to add one more thing, since the "I" is the movement of thought because "Self" as you know is made up from a bundle of images which is thought. Any effort to change is the continuity of thought which is "I", so our effort to change deepens the "I", and when there is this type of effort; this effort is a result of a goal to be something or "becoming". So to be your self in the true sense is too stop "becoming" and when there is no "becoming", there is no movement of thought, no movement of thought means no "I". So the solution is there is no solution and that becomes the solution. However as you know seeing is totally different then thinking about it, so what is one to do? Nothing becomes something but in a different sense, so there is still division. I know someone like Krishnamurti did not like the master and student relationship, I can completely understand, the word master has numerous associations associate to that word. However either you find someone who is really is a wake or I feel we have to go through extreme suffering for us to take a look at it.
sdp what is your point of view?
Peter


Hello Peter ..........I gave some hints in post #7, and went back and highlighted some things.
Our self is actually the result of our neural network in our brain. It's formed from physical 'stuff'. You could say it is the movement of real energy within our brain. Any effort of self is merely theexchange of information within our associative neural network. You give a good description above.
But, this was not always the case. A newborn baby has a relatively clean slate (a certain amount of learning does take placebefore birth). So how does a baby function? How does a baby learn anything? How does a baby begin to store information in their neural network.

Now, what's the point here? The point is that the way of the formation of the neural network of associations that form self, is also the way of decreation (Simone Weil's name for dying to self).
How does a baby function? A baby lives almost wholly and totallythrough their attention.
Suffering, in and of itself, does not lead to awakening. What suffering does, is drive the search for the way to end suffering.
So, what keeps self alive? Why is self so persistently always dragging us here and there, so relentless, so unyielding?
Let's make an analogy. What keeps the physical body alive? We feed it and give it air to breath. If we ceased feeding our body, it would die in some weeks. If we ceased breathing, our physical body would die in a few minutes. Food and air are forms of energy. If we take this energy away, we die.
So, how do we get beyond self to our true essential nature? (Zen Master Bankei called it the Unborn, also calledwho we were before we were born, also called Buddhamind, Krishnamurti called it choiceless awareness).
We have to withdraw the energy that keeps self alive.
How does one do this?You reverse the process that formed self in the first place (mostly in the first 6 years of life). As a baby lives through their attention, if we were to be able to live through our attention, this takes the energy out of self.
You see, our self/personality/persona/ego/false(sense of)self , steals all ofour energy. Another form of energy enters us through the five senses. This energy is stored, or we can say, recorded in our brain as our neural network. At about the age of six we cease functioning as we did from birth, through our attention, and all the energy that enters us through the five senses, falls on our neural network and keeps it alive. Most people, thereafter, live the whole of their life through this false sense of self, an artificial thing.
This is able to be verified, at least in part, with a little effort. At any point that you think to do so, ask yourself where your attention is. (Right now it's on these letters and words on your computer screen).
With a little effort you will see that your attention is continually captured by any manner of things in ordinary life. Your own neural network determines 'where your attention goes', what captures your attention. Sometimes your attention is scattered, isn't drawn to any particular thing (as in daydreaming), it goes here and there. The rest of the time our attention is captured by our interest [a form of desire](determined by our neural network).
In a very real sense, our essential nature is held prisoner by our own associative neural network.
How do we reverse this process? We begin living again as we did as a newborn baby, through our attention. We take back our attention. This is not easily accomplished (as anyone who has ever tried any form of meditation knows). This taking back our attention is through our voluntary attention.
..................................................................................................
So you are right, any movement of thought, any movement of the conceptual self, cannot lead to awakening, cannot go beyond itself.
But your attention is separate from thought, separate from emotions, separate from actions, and separate from sensations.
sdp

Moderated by RenGalskap on Jan 25, 2011 - 12:15PM
Roses always come with thorns. Sometimes, thorns first, sometimes roses first, and, sometimes, thorns outside, roses inside, sometimes roses outside, thorns inside.

Someone who dreams of drinking wine at a cheerful banquet may wake up crying the next morning. Someone who dreams of crying may go off the next morning to enjoy the sport of the hunt. When we are in the midst of a dream, we do not know it's a dream. Sometimes we may even try to interpret our dreams while we are dreaming, but then we awake and realize it was a dream. Only after one is greatly awakened does one realize that it was all a great dream, while the fool thinks that he is awake and presumptuously aware. Chuang Tzu
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7 years ago  ::  Jan 24, 2011 - 11:13AM #14
peterjohn
Posts: 34
Hi sdp
I really appreciate the reply!! I pay attention for the most partand I can honestly say I have completely changed but their are times I become disillusion, however thanks for the reminder in regarding attention.
Regards,
Peter
Moderated by RenGalskap on Jan 25, 2011 - 12:16PM
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7 years ago  ::  Jan 24, 2011 - 8:21PM #15
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,664

Jan 24, 2011 -- 11:13AM, peterjohn wrote:


Hi sdp
I really appreciate the reply!! I pay attention for the most part and I can honestly say I have completely changed but their are times I become disillusion, however thanks for the reminder in regarding attention.
Regards,
Peter


Sure........sdp

Moderated by RenGalskap on Jan 25, 2011 - 12:18PM
Roses always come with thorns. Sometimes, thorns first, sometimes roses first, and, sometimes, thorns outside, roses inside, sometimes roses outside, thorns inside.

Someone who dreams of drinking wine at a cheerful banquet may wake up crying the next morning. Someone who dreams of crying may go off the next morning to enjoy the sport of the hunt. When we are in the midst of a dream, we do not know it's a dream. Sometimes we may even try to interpret our dreams while we are dreaming, but then we awake and realize it was a dream. Only after one is greatly awakened does one realize that it was all a great dream, while the fool thinks that he is awake and presumptuously aware. Chuang Tzu
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7 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2011 - 12:45PM #16
RenGalskap
Posts: 1,420
The previous five messages have a note indicating that I moderated them. I removed HTML tags and control characters in an effort to find out why the text isn't wrapping properly. I didn't change any content.
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