Post Reply
Page 1 of 6  •  1 2 3 4 5 6 Next
Switch to Forum Live View The Four Noble Truths and Manifest Effects
5 years ago  ::  Oct 08, 2009 - 8:25AM #1
etoro
Posts: 551

When considering the teaching of the four noblre truths the Buddha elaborates upon the effects or results as in the experience of suffering itself before discussing their causes.  This occurs for both the effect and cause of suffering and the effect and cause of enlightened wisdom.


The effects and causes of suffering may be easier to analyse since this experience is near to us all.  But the Buddha also expresses the effect of nirvana before explaining its causes as well. Given that the effect of nirvana is more remote and obscure to people why would the BUddha lead by stating the effect or reward rather than the cause of enlightenment?


 

Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  Oct 08, 2009 - 4:37PM #2
XingYi
Posts: 59

See, I always figured the cause of enlightenment is the eightfold path.

Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  Oct 09, 2009 - 5:58PM #3
etoro
Posts: 551

Yes but these have to do with eight expressions of correctness regarding one's thoughts, words and deeds.  You may have to give this some serious thought if you really want to see what is implied with these eight types of corrrect actions of the body, mouth and mind.


A good cause leads to a good effect and an evil cause leads to an evil effect.  Complicated.

Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  Oct 11, 2009 - 7:20PM #4
XingYi
Posts: 59

I think I may be confused as to the purpose of your original post. Are you asking a question or are you looking to give people some type of lesson? It is somewhat unclear what your last post is trying to communicate.

Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  Oct 16, 2009 - 12:58AM #5
etoro
Posts: 551

Lets consider well.


1)  There is suffering - an effect


2)  There is the cause that leads to suffering - the cause (ignorance)


 


In the above the Buddha begins elaborating on the experience of mundane reality first by expressing the effects (stress, hatred, greed, etc)  before the explaining the cause ignorance, (illusion of self, etc).


 


Similarly with respect to the transmundane truth the Buddha first explains the effect, (nirvana, deathlessness etc)  before elaborating on the causes (eighfold path of thoughts, words and deeds)


3)  There is release from suffering ( the effect - nirvana)


4)  There is the cause that leads to the release from suffering. - the cause (eightfold path)


 


Why does the Buddha lead with elucidating the effects before elucidating their causes on both counts?

Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  Oct 16, 2009 - 4:15PM #6
Bob0
Posts: 482

I don't desire a long protracted debate. But I will offer this thought.  


Etoro: Why does the Buddha lead with elucidating the effects before elucidating their causes on both counts?


Will an answer to your question lead to and end of suffering?  I offer it will not. I will also offer that the dharma teaching on the 4 Nobel Truths has benefited many over centuries. If reordering the teachings help you either understand or teach others the 4 Nobel Truths then use what works.


Suffering, ignorance, and awakening are all conditioned from a state of mundane reality, (I would describe it as the normal state of mankind).  


To me there would be no understanding of why a person should follow the 8 fold path without an awareness of suffering and the supposition that suffering can be ended. The motivation starts out of the mundane condition.  


Those of us who follow the middle way path may benefit from the Dharma (Buddha's teaching) as presented.  The order of the Dharma teachings on the 4 Nobel Truths has benefited many over centuries.  


Wishing you a small tranquil day.


Your Old Bud,


Bob

Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  Oct 16, 2009 - 6:19PM #7
etoro
Posts: 551

Hey Bobo:


I am not as bad as I seem some times.  Its all good.  Feel free to express yourself how ever you wish.  I'd like to believe that due to our diligent years persuing faith and practice that we are all growing and becoming more enjoyable people. 


That said the differences in views we may experience sometimes are mostly just academic.  In the real world I am certain I would enjoy listening to your experiences in faith and the Buddhist perspective  by which you interpret them.


Thanks for sharing your thoughts.


 


 


 

Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  Oct 16, 2009 - 10:35PM #8
RenGalskap
Posts: 1,420

Oct 16, 2009 -- 6:19PM, etoro wrote:

I am not as bad as I seem some times.


I don't think anyone thinks of you as bad. :-)

Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  Oct 19, 2009 - 11:41PM #9
etoro
Posts: 551

Uh huh.  Not bad exactly but............ rrrrrrrrrrr.

Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  Oct 20, 2009 - 3:52PM #10
etoro
Posts: 551

Oct 16, 2009 -- 4:15PM, Bob0 wrote:


I don't desire a long protracted debate. But I will offer this thought.  


Etoro: Why does the Buddha lead with elucidating the effects before elucidating their causes on both counts?


Will an answer to your question lead to and end of suffering?  I offer it will not. I will also offer that the dharma teaching on the 4 Nobel Truths has benefited many over centuries. If reordering the teachings help you either understand or teach others the 4 Nobel Truths then use what works.


Suffering, ignorance, and awakening are all conditioned from a state of mundane reality, (I would describe it as the normal state of mankind).  


To me there would be no understanding of why a person should follow the 8 fold path without an awareness of suffering and the supposition that suffering can be ended. The motivation starts out of the mundane condition.  


Those of us who follow the middle way path may benefit from the Dharma (Buddha's teaching) as presented.  The order of the Dharma teachings on the 4 Nobel Truths has benefited many over centuries.  


Wishing you a small tranquil day.


Your Old Bud,


Bob




 


To return to the thread, yes I can appreciate Bobo's point but I am not certain that I agree with his sentiments in their entirety.  While it is certainly true that the principle of the four noble truths has indeed benefited numerous people it is uncertain whether all such people have in fact attained enlightenment because of this teaching in itself.


Bobo states that an answer to my question will not lead to an end of suffering.  He appears certain of his statement.  But how does he know?  Does Bobo know what an end to suffering actually means in Buddhism?  The Buddha himself died from food poisoning. Anybody who has had food poisoning knows that food poisoning is clearly a form of bodily pain and suffering.  So what does Bobo know about the meaning of the  term "the end of suffering"


The four noble truths is an introductory teaching that the Buddha employed at Sarnath to his first five disciples.  Therefore I submit that it was inquiring into the meaning of this teaching that leads to enlightenment not simply accepting it at face value.


 


 

Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 1 of 6  •  1 2 3 4 5 6 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook