See, I always figured the cause of enlightenment is the eightfold path.

I think I may be confused as to the purpose of your original post. Are you asking a question or are you looking to give people some type of lesson? It is somewhat unclear what your last post is trying to communicate.

I don't desire a long protracted debate. But I will offer this thought.  

Etoro: Why does the Buddha lead with elucidating the effects before elucidating their causes on both counts?

Will an answer to your question lead to and end of suffering?  I offer it will not. I will also offer that the dharma teaching on the 4 Nobel Truths has benefited many over centuries. If reordering the teachings help you either understand or teach others the 4 Nobel Truths then use what works.

Suffering, ignorance, and awakening are all conditioned from a state of mundane reality, (I would describe it as the normal state of mankind).  

To me there would be no understanding of why a person should follow the 8 fold path without an awareness of suffering and the supposition that suffering can be ended. The motivation starts out of the mundane condition.  

Those of us who follow the middle way path may benefit from the Dharma (Buddha's teaching) as presented.  The order of the Dharma teachings on the 4 Nobel Truths has benefited many over centuries.  

Wishing you a small tranquil day.

Your Old Bud,

Bob

Oct 16, 2009 -- 6:19PM, etoro wrote:

I am not as bad as I seem some times.

I don't think anyone thinks of you as bad. :-)

Oct 16, 2009 -- 4:15PM, Bob0 wrote:

I don't desire a long protracted debate. But I will offer this thought.  

Etoro: Why does the Buddha lead with elucidating the effects before elucidating their causes on both counts?

Will an answer to your question lead to and end of suffering?  I offer it will not. I will also offer that the dharma teaching on the 4 Nobel Truths has benefited many over centuries. If reordering the teachings help you either understand or teach others the 4 Nobel Truths then use what works.

Suffering, ignorance, and awakening are all conditioned from a state of mundane reality, (I would describe it as the normal state of mankind).  

To me there would be no understanding of why a person should follow the 8 fold path without an awareness of suffering and the supposition that suffering can be ended. The motivation starts out of the mundane condition.  

Those of us who follow the middle way path may benefit from the Dharma (Buddha's teaching) as presented.  The order of the Dharma teachings on the 4 Nobel Truths has benefited many over centuries.  

Wishing you a small tranquil day.

Your Old Bud,

Bob

To return to the thread, yes I can appreciate Bobo's point but I am not certain that I agree with his sentiments in their entirety.  While it is certainly true that the principle of the four noble truths has indeed benefited numerous people it is uncertain whether all such people have in fact attained enlightenment because of this teaching in itself.

Bobo states that an answer to my question will not lead to an end of suffering.  He appears certain of his statement.  But how does he know?  Does Bobo know what an end to suffering actually means in Buddhism?  The Buddha himself died from food poisoning. Anybody who has had food poisoning knows that food poisoning is clearly a form of bodily pain and suffering.  So what does Bobo know about the meaning of the  term "the end of suffering"

The four noble truths is an introductory teaching that the Buddha employed at Sarnath to his first five disciples.  Therefore I submit that it was inquiring into the meaning of this teaching that leads to enlightenment not simply accepting it at face value.