No need to delete your msg, and there is no need to not quote Zen teachers (though "Osho" is a bit of a problem), but I am just asking individuals to keep in mind this sort of thing.

vacchagotta wrote:

Chiyo,

I can see where you are coming from, I think, but for me in the face of the plain sense teachings of the Buddha, it becomes an unnecessary excercise in tautology. For example, clearly the ordinary, "non-Zen" person lacks something because he suffers samsara, even if we say he only lacks the perception that he lacks nothing! So when that worldling acts, their actions are clearly not embodying that the means is the end. If by some sophistry we try to maintain that they are, then the very existence of Zen is anachronistic and totally unnecessary. So in that respect, means-as-end is a not-yet-accomplished goal! But what is the means to that end? And so on. In the end, for me anyway, the best way to cut through that tautology is just recognize that the Buddha clearly defined a goal and the means to that goal. And the raft simile fairly certainly keeps them distinct.

in friendliness,
V.

Vacchagotta -

As I'd stated above, I'd posted on a Theravadan board by accident and again, I apologize. Please excuse me from this conversation.

Wishing you the best on your journey.

[QUOTE=brburl;551942]An external tool or external goal, would be a delusion.

Not really. The delusion is assuming that what is relative or provisional  is somehow less true that what is supposedly ultimate.

I'll stick with the Buddha.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.  The means, the eightfold path, is not less true.  Its truth is that it leads to its goal.  The goal's truth is that it really is the ultimate end of suffering.

in friendliness,
V.

Thanks everyone for all the insights!    Amazing discussions!   Bob0, great link.  Thanks!

[QUOTE=clduckett;588760]The Zen koan about thorns is useful here: You use one thorn to remove a second thorn from your finger, and when it's removed you throw both thorns away. In your case, "overcome" or "goal" is one thorn, "desire" is another. Once you get "it" (whatever "it" may be), you toss both notions away as superfluous. Too many folks waste too many years hanging on to the thorns when they really don't need to.[/QUOTE]

Yes, for me the confusion was cleared up when I realized that "true cessations" meant just that.  One removes the desire for things that seem like happiness and the desire to escape from things that make one unhappy.  Once those desires are removed then happiness comes.  It is not a goal but a series of subtractions from the illusion of self.  The thorn of avoidance, the thorn of hanging on to fleeting sensory happiness, the thorn of indifference.