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6 years ago  ::  Jan 16, 2008 - 3:15PM #21
ronnewmexico
Posts: 490
Well generally, if one is to state the choice of Tibetan Buddhism is not a valid choice or option for a atheist on a debate board, that statement is probably going to be challenged.

That statement made on a general Buddhist board may not be as it is just another opinion.

Tibetan Buddhism is not superior to any other form of Buddhism but it is equal with others. I have a  acquaintance from Sri Lanka who follows the Theravadan Buddhist tradition. My personal observation is that he and his family have belief in the unnatural more than I find in most other cultures. It seems a very unnatural oriented culture.  My most extensive talks with him center upon comparing ghost stories.  Which I find quite enjoyable. Most cultures of Southeast Asia have similiar cultural experience of involving the unnatural with the Buddhist relgion by my personal experience.

Would I suggest to another not to explore Theravadan Buddhism as a choice based on this due to the fact they are atheists.....of course not. Likewise should not Tibetan Buddhism be discounted due to inclusion of diety practice and God realms into the belief structure. The unnatural in Sri Lanka and the diety practice in Tibetan Buddhism are both not within the context of theism.

Yes certainly it is best to feel welcome and to extend a environment of welcomeing.

If one does make comment that anothers choice of a school of Buddhism is not proper for consideration due to inherant aspects of that religious belief structure, it is generally going to be challenged, by members who hold that view, if that view is considered sustainable .

I find the statement that all Buddhist religions deserve equal consideration by anyone so inclined to explore such is the correct statement. No form of Buddhism is superior to another and none to my knowledge believe in theism. Individuals within such schools may believe in such but it is not part of core belief. Occasional Christians may be found that believe in Christ, call themselves Christians, but do not believe in a God, but generally core Christian belief involves belief in a creator God. Similiarly is Buddhism's concensus opinion is the lack of inherantly existant beings. And this is not to state Buddhism is superior to any other religion, but it is what it is.

So atheists may explore any school of Buddhist religion and generally not feel out of place.

To make statements one particular school of Buddhism may be not suited for atheists is presumptive not sustainable and reasonably should expect a counter on a Buddhist debate board. If it is a sustainable statement it will be defensible in discussion. If it is not it will not be.

During the last month or so I have found the leader of Tibetan Buddhism called a dictator and a theist,  monks of Tibetan Buddhism drug takers, and now that Tibetan Buddhism itself is not suited for atheists.
This despite the fact many atheists like myself(who is not agnostic but atheist) do call themselves and actually are(by ceremony as well as belief) Tibetan Buddhist.

Responding to such may not create a welcomeing environment.....certainly. But this is after all a debate board. I do not question the ability or right of others to make those statements though I may find them offensive personally. They must however be prepared to defend those assertations. Buddhists may be pacifists(many of them) this does not however mean they are passive or to be Buddhist means to act in a passive manner. The Buddha was not a passive person and did not respond in a passive manner to things. He was born to the warrior class and did plant his munjua before Mara and did decide either to attain enlightenment or die. These are not the actions of a passive person. 

So this board is what it is.

Not all however do find it offensive as I quote post three....."Thank you very much, this really helped me, I'll keep on searching for more information."

Which is not found in  the same exact thread posted on the Buddhist general forum board.  Not to state this thread or those expressing opinions on such are better than the other, but this environment should also not necessarily be considered lesser, or the posters opinions here to be lesser than on other sites or religions.

So at least one has found this very helpful. One on a internet board that actually finds something helpful may be very many, by my experience.

This all to my limited understanding.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 16, 2008 - 10:05PM #22
ronnewmexico
Posts: 490
As a total aside and to deviate totally from the topic for those that may need comforting and search for such  on Beliefnet forums.... Reincarnation and past lives(not discuss reincarnation and past lives), the cabin thread,  (at the top) is very very comforting it seems .

I strongly advocate it, and suggest others may care to spend some time with it.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 16, 2008 - 10:46PM #23
trishnajewelry
Posts: 31
this was sent with a few words by accident
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 16, 2008 - 11:09PM #24
trishnajewelry
Posts: 31
just in this one response . . . the following were not at all what i said . . . i am a practicing tibetan buddhist. . . and you are unable to read -- i suggest you go back and see what isaid compared to what you chose to make up . . .

ronnewmexico wrote:

Well generally, if one is to state the choice of Tibetan Buddhism is not a valid choice or option for a atheist on a debate board, that statement is probably going to be challenged. NOT SAID, YOUR ARGUMENTATIVE PROJECTION

Tibetan Buddhism is not superior to any other form of Buddhism but it is equal with others. NOT SAID, YOUR ARGUMENTATIVE PROJECTION

Would I suggest to another not to explore Theravadan Buddhism as a choice based on this due to the fact they are atheists.....of course not. Likewise should not Tibetan Buddhism be discounted due to inclusion of diety practice and God realms into the belief structure. NOT SAID, YOUR ARGUMENTATIVE PROJECTION

If one does make comment that anothers choice of a school of Buddhism is not proper for consideration due to inherant aspects of that religious belief structure, it is generally going to be challenged, by members who hold that view, if that view is considered sustainable.
YES, OF ONE SAID THAT . . . NOT SAID, YOUR ARGUMENTATIVE PROJECTION

No form of Buddhism is superior to another and none to my knowledge believe in theism. NOT SAID, YOUR ARGUMENTATIVE PROJECTION

So atheists may explore any school of Buddhist religion and generally not feel out of place. GO FOR IT . . . AS AN ATHIEST I THINK YOU HAVE THAT RIGHT . . .NOT SAID, YOUR ARGUMENTATIVE PROJECTION

To make statements one particular school of Buddhism may be not suited for atheists is presumptive not sustainable and reasonably should expect a counter on a Buddhist debate board. If it is a sustainable statement it will be defensible in discussion. If it is not it will not be. IF STATED . . . NOT SAID, YOUR ARGUMENTATIVE PROJECTION

During the last month or so I have found the leader of Tibetan Buddhism called a dictator and a theist, monks of Tibetan Buddhism drug takers, and now that Tibetan Buddhism itself is not suited for atheists. SO GO BOTHER THE PERSON THAT SAID THAT -- BUT DO NOT INCLUDE IT HERE AS IF I SAID IT

I do not question the ability or right of others to make those statements though I may find them offensive personally. YOU WOULD HAVE TO BE OFFENDED ALL BY YOURSELF . . . IT IS YOUR OFFENSE, NOT MY STATEMENTS.

They must however be prepared to defend those assertations. IF ONE SAIDT HE THINGS YOU PROJECTED . . . NOT SAID, YOUR ARGUMENTATIVE PROJECTION



Ron, you have made so many statements (some shown above, with my comments capped) that were not what i said, and jumped to argue about so much that was not even close to where i was going, that i found YOU to be argumentative -- not a good-hearted debate, but offensive, misquoting, projecting, and THAT is what i am not interested in. I would welcome some good debate with some knowledgeable Buddhists on particular topic. but that is not what you were doing. you were out to prove me wrong (no need to, and you can't, so it is a moot point -- my experiences stand, as do yours -- though no one was questioning yours.) and frankly, i found your 'shares" undermining to anyone who was asking Wendy’s question.

as a matter of fact, it was i who made a personal statement (even though you have spoken of your personal statements and owning them) about my experiences with atheists and their preferences when i have exposed them to ALL the Buddhists paths. YOU chose to take it personally, and began defending Tibetan Buddhism and being an atheist. i am a 30-year practitioner of tsogchen, and you are preaching to the choir. however, it is evident that you have a hot button on anyone else saying anything about finding a way in to Buddhism, assume ALL atheists re like yourself, leave no room for commentary, and frankly, i found the thread boring and didactic. I am not interested in a fight, and your defensive and aggressive posturing about your beliefs was just that. instead of hearing my whole post, each time you decided to take some part of it, misquote me, and run with it as if.

i stand on my personal experiences, and you do not own Buddhism, Tibetan or otherwise, nor atheistic beliefs. you say you want to own your own stands, but then you cram then and go on and on and on about them. you took my offering of helpfulness to another and turned it into something personal, and no matter how I handled it you continued, NOT WHAT I AM INTERESTED IN.

and your personal banter with ren/ron whoever was not the problem -- obviously you guys have a personal relationship and that is fine. stop projecting and take a look at your own conduct and pushiness and offensive behavior.

i won't be back to check this discussion again.

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6 years ago  ::  Jan 16, 2008 - 11:39PM #25
trishnajewelry
Posts: 31

trishnajewelry wrote:

Hi Wendy --
Find a book which quickens your mind an dheart and then you will have a place to begin. I began as a zennie, and then found a beleoved teacher (passed) who was Tibetan (I was called by his students who were all vegetarians to cook his lamb for him.) If you are an athiest you may enjoy Zen buddhism more, as there is no emphasis on diety practice. I suggest some books:
Zen Mind Beginners Mind, a good zen starter, no god!
Start Where You Are, by Pema Chodron -- and all books by her. Though she is Tibetan, she started out as a zennie with the teacher listed above, and she has wonderful tools for life without talking about god . . .
Enjoy, and put no mind before your own . . .



FYI, AS A REMINDER . . .

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6 years ago  ::  Jan 16, 2008 - 11:46PM #26
trishnajewelry
Posts: 31

trishnajewelry wrote:

and I stick with my recommendations of books from both zen and tibetan teachers..
as you are a physicist. I ahve another recommednation -- a book by Chagdud Rinpoche called "Gates to Buddhist Practice" -- as a physicist you might enjoy his discussions of absolute and relative reality.



WOW . .  . ronnewmexico, i recommended two TIBETAN teachers to one zen . . .   

AMAZING.

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6 years ago  ::  Jan 17, 2008 - 12:12AM #27
ronnewmexico
Posts: 490
Well then.

I guess from reading that post you agree with me. Tibetan Buddhism is a equal choice of those who want to explore Buddhism; wether they be atheist or not. I am happy you agree.

Have a nice day and/or night.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 16, 2008 - 10:46PM #28
trishnajewelry
Posts: 31
this was sent with a few words by accident
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 16, 2008 - 11:09PM #29
trishnajewelry
Posts: 31
just in this one response . . . the following were not at all what i said . . . i am a practicing tibetan buddhist. . . and you are unable to read -- i suggest you go back and see what isaid compared to what you chose to make up . . .

ronnewmexico wrote:

Well generally, if one is to state the choice of Tibetan Buddhism is not a valid choice or option for a atheist on a debate board, that statement is probably going to be challenged. NOT SAID, YOUR ARGUMENTATIVE PROJECTION

Tibetan Buddhism is not superior to any other form of Buddhism but it is equal with others. NOT SAID, YOUR ARGUMENTATIVE PROJECTION

Would I suggest to another not to explore Theravadan Buddhism as a choice based on this due to the fact they are atheists.....of course not. Likewise should not Tibetan Buddhism be discounted due to inclusion of diety practice and God realms into the belief structure. NOT SAID, YOUR ARGUMENTATIVE PROJECTION

If one does make comment that anothers choice of a school of Buddhism is not proper for consideration due to inherant aspects of that religious belief structure, it is generally going to be challenged, by members who hold that view, if that view is considered sustainable.
YES, OF ONE SAID THAT . . . NOT SAID, YOUR ARGUMENTATIVE PROJECTION

No form of Buddhism is superior to another and none to my knowledge believe in theism. NOT SAID, YOUR ARGUMENTATIVE PROJECTION

So atheists may explore any school of Buddhist religion and generally not feel out of place. GO FOR IT . . . AS AN ATHIEST I THINK YOU HAVE THAT RIGHT . . .NOT SAID, YOUR ARGUMENTATIVE PROJECTION

To make statements one particular school of Buddhism may be not suited for atheists is presumptive not sustainable and reasonably should expect a counter on a Buddhist debate board. If it is a sustainable statement it will be defensible in discussion. If it is not it will not be. IF STATED . . . NOT SAID, YOUR ARGUMENTATIVE PROJECTION

During the last month or so I have found the leader of Tibetan Buddhism called a dictator and a theist, monks of Tibetan Buddhism drug takers, and now that Tibetan Buddhism itself is not suited for atheists. SO GO BOTHER THE PERSON THAT SAID THAT -- BUT DO NOT INCLUDE IT HERE AS IF I SAID IT

I do not question the ability or right of others to make those statements though I may find them offensive personally. YOU WOULD HAVE TO BE OFFENDED ALL BY YOURSELF . . . IT IS YOUR OFFENSE, NOT MY STATEMENTS.

They must however be prepared to defend those assertations. IF ONE SAIDT HE THINGS YOU PROJECTED . . . NOT SAID, YOUR ARGUMENTATIVE PROJECTION



Ron, you have made so many statements (some shown above, with my comments capped) that were not what i said, and jumped to argue about so much that was not even close to where i was going, that i found YOU to be argumentative -- not a good-hearted debate, but offensive, misquoting, projecting, and THAT is what i am not interested in. I would welcome some good debate with some knowledgeable Buddhists on particular topic. but that is not what you were doing. you were out to prove me wrong (no need to, and you can't, so it is a moot point -- my experiences stand, as do yours -- though no one was questioning yours.) and frankly, i found your 'shares" undermining to anyone who was asking Wendy’s question.

as a matter of fact, it was i who made a personal statement (even though you have spoken of your personal statements and owning them) about my experiences with atheists and their preferences when i have exposed them to ALL the Buddhists paths. YOU chose to take it personally, and began defending Tibetan Buddhism and being an atheist. i am a 30-year practitioner of tsogchen, and you are preaching to the choir. however, it is evident that you have a hot button on anyone else saying anything about finding a way in to Buddhism, assume ALL atheists re like yourself, leave no room for commentary, and frankly, i found the thread boring and didactic. I am not interested in a fight, and your defensive and aggressive posturing about your beliefs was just that. instead of hearing my whole post, each time you decided to take some part of it, misquote me, and run with it as if.

i stand on my personal experiences, and you do not own Buddhism, Tibetan or otherwise, nor atheistic beliefs. you say you want to own your own stands, but then you cram then and go on and on and on about them. you took my offering of helpfulness to another and turned it into something personal, and no matter how I handled it you continued, NOT WHAT I AM INTERESTED IN.

and your personal banter with ren/ron whoever was not the problem -- obviously you guys have a personal relationship and that is fine. stop projecting and take a look at your own conduct and pushiness and offensive behavior.

i won't be back to check this discussion again.

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6 years ago  ::  Jan 16, 2008 - 11:39PM #30
trishnajewelry
Posts: 31

trishnajewelry wrote:

Hi Wendy --
Find a book which quickens your mind an dheart and then you will have a place to begin. I began as a zennie, and then found a beleoved teacher (passed) who was Tibetan (I was called by his students who were all vegetarians to cook his lamb for him.) If you are an athiest you may enjoy Zen buddhism more, as there is no emphasis on diety practice. I suggest some books:
Zen Mind Beginners Mind, a good zen starter, no god!
Start Where You Are, by Pema Chodron -- and all books by her. Though she is Tibetan, she started out as a zennie with the teacher listed above, and she has wonderful tools for life without talking about god . . .
Enjoy, and put no mind before your own . . .



FYI, AS A REMINDER . . .

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