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Switch to Forum Live View Mormons, Prop 8 and Kristallnacht
6 years ago  ::  Dec 07, 2008 - 8:24PM #1
BillThinks4Himself
Posts: 3,205
I am not a Jew, though I am a respectful admirer of your tradition, one who strongly suspects that Christianity did not understand the Hebrew Bible when it enlisted the same to prop up arguments for the Messianic claims of Jesus.  In fact, I'm a bit suspicious of the fact that the New Testament was written in Greek, not Hebrew or Aramaic, that many references to "the Jews" in the Gospels sound more like they were written by Europeans who simply used the Jewish community as a foil, and Jesus's prayer - on the night before his crucifixion - to "Let this cup pass from me."  I know of no Jewish community that ever poisoned its condemned.  It sounds to me like this is a reference to the Greek dissenter, Socrates, whose community rejected his teachings and forced him to drink a cup of hemlock.  To me, it's one more bit of evidence suggesting that Christianity is less Jewish than Greco-Roman - and that much of Christian antisemitism may be sourced to the need to demonize upholders of a Jewish tradition being raided and twisted by non-Jewish pretenders.

That said, the reason I've come here is that, on the Mormon/LDS board, there is a Mormon who thinks the LDS Church's backlash - after jumping into the Prop 8 battle in California - is the equivalent of kristallnacht.  I find such a suggestion both disrespectful as well as inaccurate.  To me, it trivializes this horrifying incident, which was part of a much larger movement which would lead to genocide.  I was wondering if anyone here would be willing to weigh in, at the Mormon board, as invited guests, to discuss whether it is appropriate for Mormons to compare their current situation to kristallnacht - or any other event involved with the Holocaust.

Thank you for your time.
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 07, 2008 - 10:01PM #2
BillThinks4Himself
Posts: 3,205
Here's an excerpt from a recent post, by someone calling himself VergilisVaticanus, which I consider particularly offensive.  If anyone has any thoughts, please consider visiting the Mormon board - to the post "Mormons, Prop 8 and Kristallnacht."

[QUOTE]
The gay community engages in boycotts against any individual that is Mormon
The gay community paints graffitti on houses of worship
The gay community attacks people who do not agree with their stance
Members in the gay community sent white powder (a hate crime) in order to intimidate churches and leadership
All this justified in the name of oppression of gays

During Kristallnacht:
Germans stood outside Jewish stores and warned against anyone doing business with Jews and warned everyone against doing any kind of business with individual Mormons
They placed grafitti on synagogues and and stores and houses of worship
If a German expressed neutrality or opposed the actions they were attacked for that stance
Members of the Nazi party sent missives threatening death to Jews and Germans that did not adhere to the Nazi stance
All of this done in the name of opression against Germans. [/QUOTE]

If it matters, please weigh in over at the Mormon thread, as it would help the discussion of whether such comparison are appropriate or not.
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2008 - 10:20AM #3
autoclavicle
Posts: 1
It is weird but some Christians like to pretend that they are being oppressed when in reality, they are the majority in America and more often then not, the oppressors. I guess they think it gives them credibilty? I don't think it's hard to see that the Christians, especially Mormons, are the majority who conspired together to take away the civil rights of a minority.
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 09, 2008 - 5:17AM #4
Bunsinspace
Posts: 5,900
[QUOTE=autoclavicle;942900]It is weird but some Christians like to pretend that they are being oppressed when in reality, they are the majority in America and more often then not, the oppressors. I guess they think it gives them credibilty? I don't think it's hard to see that the Christians, especially Mormons, are the majority who conspired together to take away the civil rights of a minority.[/QUOTE]

BS"D

Now that's a very significant observation IMHO.  The main tool of a fear-mongering oppressor historically has been that very technique of falsely painting themselves as the underdog being oppressed by an intractably evil force - that force being in reality a relatively powerless minority.  This fear-based cycle of self-justifying oppression is very powerful and is seldom broken except by those few brave souls who dare to think for themselves and realize that it is a case of the fox guarding the henhouse. 

Such odious fear-mongering governance is the hallmark of mainstream Christian evangelicalism as well as right-wing Jewish fanaticism (not to mention the primary plank in all Republican politics).  It takes a LOT of abnormally superhuman integrity to overcome such inertia once one has bought into such a closed mindset IMHO.  It is no wonder that our sages designated such a phenomenon of Tschuvah in many areas of human endeavor as akin to "rising from the dead."  It is that much of a miracle IMHO.
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 09, 2008 - 4:31PM #5
Adam_Kratt
Posts: 82
[QUOTE=BillThinks4Himself;942207]  I was wondering if anyone here would be willing to weigh in, at the Mormon board, as invited guests, to discuss whether it is appropriate for Mormons to compare their current situation to kristallnacht - or any other event involved with the Holocaust.

Thank you for your time.[/QUOTE]

Personally, as a Jew, I am offended that the Mormons would attempt to associate themselves with the jewish victims of the Holocaust since the Mormons are committing mass rape on the souls of Jews who were murdered in the Holocaust. In fact I would equat the attack and lies that the Mormons used to make Gays and Lesbians second class citizens in California as equivelent to the thugs that commited the the destruction.

I would say the Mormons represent the thugs of Kristallnacht in the Prop 8 saga

I would say the Gays and Lesbians are the victims in the Prop 8 saga
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 06, 2009 - 5:30PM #6
Zevida
Posts: 10
[QUOTE=Adam_Kratt;945607]Personally, as a Jew, I am offended that the Mormons would attempt to associate themselves with the jewish victims of the Holocaust since the Mormons are committing mass rape on the souls of Jews who were murdered in the Holocaust.
[/QUOTE]

I hear you!
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5 years ago  ::  Mar 10, 2009 - 11:46PM #7
BillThinks4Himself
Posts: 3,205

I just deleted my comment about why Mormons should not be compared with rapists for engaging in baptism for the dead.  While I stand by my previous comments, I now think they sounded preachy. 

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