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Switch to Forum Live View Hope For Natural-Born LGBT
3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2015 - 6:37PM #1
Posts: 3,398

LGBT have really been in the news of late because of all the flap about bakery shops refusing to sell wedding cakes, and flower shops refusing to sell floral arrangements for gay weddings. But the hope that this thread introduces is neither political nor legal: rather; it pertains to the afterlife.

Back in 1968, when I was a young single guy living alone in a one-room budget rental; it occurred to me that it would sure be a whole lot easier to please God if I was like Him instead of like me. Well; imagine the amazement that washed over me upon discovering that my thoughts were on the right track.

†. 2Pet 1:4 . . He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, in order that by them you might become partakers of the divine nature.

While I was home from work sick one day several years ago, I watched a morning show hosted by Regis Philbin and Kathie Lee Gifford. Somehow the Bible passage below came up in conversation.

Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life." (John 3:14-15)

Neither Regis nor Kathie had a clue what Christ's statement is saying; and both are Christians— Regis a Catholic and Kathie a Protestant.

I was thunderstruck that two very popular, widely-known Christian celebrities blew a golden opportunity to explain the gospel to a nationwide audience due, not to opposition by the devil, nor to opposition by non Christians; but simply due to their own ignorance of Christ's teachings.

The incident to which he referred is located at Num 21:5-9. Long story short: Yhvh's people became weary of eating manna all the time at every meal. But instead of courteously, and diplomatically, petitioning their divine benefactor for a different diet, they became hostile and confrontational; angrily demanding tastier food.

In response to their insolence, and their ingratitude for His providence; Yhvh sent a swarm of deadly poisonous vipers among them; which began striking people; and every strike was 100% fatal, no exceptions. Then the people came to their senses and asked Moses to intercede. In reply; Yhvh instructed Moses to fashion an image of the vipers and hoist it up on a pole in plain view so that everyone dying from venom could look to the image for relief.

The key issue here is that the image was the only God-given remedy for the people's bites— not sacrifices and offerings, not tithing, not church attendance, not scapulars, not confession, not holy days of obligation, not the Sabbath, not the golden rule, not charity, not Bible study and/or Sunday school, not self denial, not vows of poverty, not the Ten Commandments, not one's religion of choice, no; not even prayers. The image was it. In other words then: Christ's crucifixion is the only God-given, fail-safe escape from the wrath of God; and when people accept it and depend upon it; then according to John 3:14-16, they qualify for eternal life.

So; how does any of this relate to the divine nature about which Peter spoke at 2Pet 1:4?

Well; the eternal life that Christ spoke of in John 3:14-16 is simply another way of saying divine life. I mean: who but God is eternal, and who but God is divine? So: eternal life is associated with divine nature just as human life is associated with human nature. They're joined at the hip.

Eternal life is often confused with immortality; but they are not the same. Immortality has to do with a body that's impervious to death and putrefaction. Eternal life has to do with the nature of God. (1John 1:1-2)

One of Webster's definitions of nature is: the inherent character or basic constitution of a person or thing.

The basic constitution of human life is human nature. The basic constitution of eternal life is divine nature. If somebody can understand what human nature is; then they can understand what divine nature is. The one is inherent within humans, the other inherent within God.

Bottom line: eternal life is the solution to a natural-born LGBT's dilemma. With eternal life they will never lie again (Titus 1:2) will never be tempted to be LGBT again (Jas 1:13) and will never sin again either (1John 3:9); thus their entry into the holy city depicted in the 21st chapter of Revelation is assured, and their name guaranteed to be registered in the Lamb's book of life.

"Nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life. (Rev 21:27)


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3 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2015 - 12:28PM #2
Posts: 3,398

Everybody has problems with proclivities which Webster's defines as an inclination or predisposition toward something: especially a strong inherent inclination toward something objectionable. And everybody also has problems with predilections; which Webster's defines as a natural liking for something: a tendency to do or to be attracted to something

†. Eph 2:2-4 . .We too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

With a pronoun like "we" Paul included himself as someone with natural-born longings and desires for bad things. And the pronoun "all" precludes the possibility of any one Christian claiming to be born free of a strong inherent inclination toward something objectionable and/or a tendency to do, or to be attracted to, something bad.

My point is; unless something were done to remedy people's predilections and proclivities nobody would qualify for citizenship in either the new cosmos or the holy city depicted in the 21st chapter of Revelation. All would be barred entry even though Christ gave his life to atone for everybody's sins.

The problem is, they would go right on sinning just like always because their predilections and proclivities would drive them to sin; and were they to suppress those predilections and proclivities I think they would eventually suffer a nervous break down because they would be fighting against nature; which everybody instinctively knows is a fight that can't be won without suffering serious psychological consequences. Well; heaven is depicted as a place of peace, joy, and happiness; rather than a place where people go around with long faces because they aren't coupled with the gender of their choice.

I'd imagine there's going to be a lot of bitter resentment at the Great White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15 when LGBT people see others they knew in life in the gallery dressed in white watching them being condemned to the lake of flaming sulfur for doing the very same thing in life that they did. "Hey!" they'll yell in protest. "What about so and so over there? How come he gets a pass when he's just as much LGBT as we are?"

And the Lord will answer: "Who that guy? Oh yeah; I remember him. He was a pretty chronic LGBT in life; but at least had the good sense to take me up on, not a sex change; but a change of nature. As a result, he's no longer LGBT; in point of fact it is impossible for him to be LGBT and just as impossible to tempt him to be LGBT. And as for his conduct in life? Well; I took care of all that on the cross so my Father would have nothing with which to charge him. Up here, your ex LGBT friend is an innocent man. Sorry about that."

In other words: Absolute innocence is the ultimate goal of the plan of salvation; and to my knowledge the only way thus far to obtain it is via the divine nature that the OP introduced; and that goes for everybody, not just LGBT.

People who pass on into the next life lacking the divine nature about which Peter spoke at 2Pet 1:4, and Christ spoke at John 3:14-16, will be sentenced to the lake of burning sulfur as per Rev 21:8 and barred from entering the holy city as per Rev 21:28; and it won't matter whether they are LGBT or non LGBT. Nobody is exempt. The divine nature isn't optional; it's a must.

†. John 3:7 . .You must be born again.


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3 years ago  ::  Apr 20, 2015 - 10:58AM #3
Posts: 3,398

†. Luke 8:11 . . Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

"seed" doesn't always refer to words; for example:

†. Gal 3:16 . .The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.

†. Rom 1:3 . . Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh

†. 2Tim 2:8 . . Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David

The seed in those passages is obviously speaking of genetics rather than words.

Here's another passage where I think it's best to interpret seed as referring to genetics.

†. 1John 3:9 . . No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

In other words: if someone were to be born of God, they would quite naturally inherit His sinless perfection; for example:

Jesus Christ was born not only of Abraham and David; but also of God; and the Bible attests to his sinless perfection.

†. 1Pet 2:22 . . He committed no sin

†. Heb 4:15 . . He was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Most folk like to attribute Christ's sinless perfection to his being God; but I'd rather attribute it to Christ's possession of his Father's life.

†. John 5:27 . . As the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.

Well; needless to say, the kind of life that's in the Father is eternal life; which is the very same kind of life that Christ grants to his believing followers. (John 3:14-16. John 17:2)

I conclude therefore, that the "seed" spoken of in 1John 3:9 is eternal life; which is an inherently sinless kind of life as opposed to human life which is an inherently sinful kind of life.

Q: If eternal life is an inherently sinless kind of life, then why does 1John 1:8-10 say that Christ's believing followers are liars if they claim to be sinless?

A: Because his believing followers are an amalgam of that which is human and that which is divine.

†. John 3:6 . .That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Q: Well; if Christ was an amalgam of that which is human and that which is divine; then why didn't 1John 1:8-10 apply to him?

A: Christ had a whopping advantage over his believing followers. He wasn't just filled with the Spirit; he was over-maxed with it.

†. John 3:34 . . God's Spirit is upon him without measure or limit.

†. Col 2:9 . . For in him all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form


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3 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2015 - 9:25AM #4
Posts: 3,398

I deliberately revised the translation of 1Cor 6:9-11 below in order to emphasize something.

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you reformed.

No; it doesn't say the Corinthian Christians reformed. Here is what Paul really said.

"But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

Note that the Corinthian Christians didn't wash themselves, nor sanctify themselves, nor justify themselves. No; it was all done for them "by the Spirit of our God".

The New Testament Greek word for "wash" is apolouo (ap-ol-oo'-o) which indicates bathing, like when volunteers scrub petroleum off of sea birds in the aftermath of oil spills.

The word for "sanctified" is hagiazo (hag-ee-ad'-zo) which just simply means to designate someone and/or something as set aside for God.

The word for "justified" is dikaioo (dik-ah-yo'-o) which means to acquit; viz: to render (i.e. show or regard as) righteous or innocent.

It's tragic that so many modern churchians use 1Cor 6:9-11 to pummel Christian LGBT when Paul actually meant it to reassure them of their safety. And the other Corinthian Christians too: the sexually immoral, the idolaters, the adulterers, the male prostitutes, the thieves, the greedy, the drunkards, the slanderers, and the swindlers.


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3 years ago  ::  Apr 23, 2015 - 1:48PM #5
Posts: 3,398

†. 1Tim 1:8-11 . . Law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

The koiné Greek word translated "homosexuals" is arsenokoites (ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace) which means sodomites. These days you can't call people sodomites: just like you can't call half white black people mulatto because those labels are out of vogue; viz: no longer politically correct. But, nevertheless, a rose by any other name speaks of the same flower.

The average rank and file pew warmer doesn't need a lesson in linguistics to understand what sodomy is. Everybody knows it refers to the men of Sodom in the Old Testament who tried to rape the male messengers harbored within Lot's home.

LGBT and Liars are grouped together in 1Tim 1:8-11. But Christians tend to let liars slide because, while LGBT represent only a very small fraction of society, liars represent the total of society. Nobody is 100% honest all the time. There are Christians who are honest some of the time, and there are Christians who are even honest most of the time, but none of them are honest all the time; and yet they all believe themselves exempt from a liar's condemnation.

It's very commonly known that LGBT are in grave danger of the wrath of God; but dishonest Christians are in grave peril too.

†. Rev 21:7-8 . . All liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

In addition, unless Christians are 100% honest, they will be barred entry to the holy city depicted in the book of Revelation.

†. Rev 21:27 . . No one who practices lying, shall ever come into [the holy city, the new Jerusalem] but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Obviously then, there are no dishonest Christians' names recorded in the Lamb's book of life.

I think it's very unfair that Christian liars are willing to give themselves a pass while refusing to give Christian LGBT a pass seeing as how both kinds of Christians are just as condemned as the other.

Paul also mentioned "those who are lawless and rebellious". That would be scofflaws who J-walk, hang illegal U-turns, fail to yield the right of way, feed parking meters, drift through stop signs without coming to a complete halt, exceed the speed limit, make unsafe lane changes, vent in road rage, and walk their dogs off-leash and not pick up their droppings; etc.

I think that it's very unfair that Christian scofflaws are willing to give themselves a pass while refusing to give Christian LGBT a pass seeing as how both kinds of Christians are just as condemned as the other.

Paul also mentioned "whatever else is contrary to sound teaching".

Now THAT encompasses a monster category of conduct unbecoming; including, but not limited to: thoughtless remarks, toxic rejoinders, ugly suggestions, demeaning comments, malicious gossip, selfishness, grudging, chafing, greed, avarice, purple epithets, cussing, insolence, pouting, innuendoes, bigotry, elitism, conceit, pretense, hypocrisy, cheating, stealing, taking liberties, trespassing, quarrelling, sniping, revenge, yelling, door-slamming, hissy fits, stone-walling, foot dragging, stubbornness, lashing out, fault finding, mockery, name calling, petty ill will . . .

. . . denigrating labels, misogyny, misandry, hatred of small children, character assassination, spite, failure to turn the other cheek, recriminations, indifference to poverty and need, hounding and stalking, silent treatments, demeaning humor, intimidation, rage, carping, rivalry, hostility, antagonism, roasting, animosity, double standards, wiseacre retorts, cold shouldering, and rumor mongering, etc, et al.

I think that it's very unfair that Christians in the "whatever else is contrary to sound teaching" category are willing to give themselves a pass while refusing to give Christian LGBT a pass seeing as how both kinds of Christians are just as condemned as the other.

He that is without sin among you; let him be the first to throw a stone. (John 8:7)


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3 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2015 - 2:07PM #6
Posts: 3,398

†. 2Cor 5:17-18 . . From now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

Back in the decade of the nineteen-seventies, I consulted a radio pastor in Vista California to ask him a question that was really eating at my insides. I explained that 1John 3:9 says that born-again Christians not only don't practice sin; but they cannot practice sin. So I logically concluded that I must not be born again because I was still sinning.

The pastor pointed out that the man who penned 1John 3:9 is the self-same man who penned 1John 1:8-10; which essentially says that if born-again Christians claim to be sinless they are not only delusional; but also insinuating that God is dishonest. And the pronouns "us" and "we" implicate the author just as much as they implicate his readers.

The pastor went on to explain that the birth about which Christ spoke at John 3:3-8 does not remove one's human nature; not in this life anyway. No, born-again Christians retain their human nature and it exists right alongside the divine nature that they obtained from undergoing the Spirit birth.

†. John 3:6 . .That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

That which is born of the Spirit of course never sins, nor can it sin because it takes after God, who cannot lie (Titus 1:2, Heb 6:18) who cannot sin (1John 1:5) and who cannot be tempted to sin (Jas 1:13). But of course human nature never gives up on sinning; thus the necessity of 1John 1:9

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

"our sins" aren't committed by that which is born of the Spirit (1John 3:9) but by that which is born of the flesh; viz: human nature; which born-again Christians retain until their natural body's demise. That's when the circumcision spoken of at Col 2:11 takes over and deceased born-again Christians shed their human nature like a dead skin; which indeed it is.

†. Rom 6:6 . . For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with; that we should no longer be slaves to sin

†. Col 3:3-4 . . For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

Bottom line: The Spirit birth about which Christ spoke at John 3:3-8, and the circumcision about which Paul wrote at Col 2:11, assure that Christ's naughty followers won't be naughty in the future. But of course this only applies to Christ's believing followers. His entourage of non-believing followers are excluded.


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3 years ago  ::  May 09, 2015 - 9:47AM #7
Posts: 3,398

If perchance what I wrote in post #6 is true and reliable; then Christ's believing LGBT followers have just as great a future to look forward to as all the rest of Christ's believing followers, including, but not limited to, the believing liars, the believing adulterers, the believing swindlers, the believing alcoholics, the believing fornicators, the believing male and female prostitutes, the believing malicious gossips, the believing users of bad language, the believing porn stars, the believing avarice-prone moguls, and the believing thieves; et al.

However, his disbelieving followers are cursed even as we speak-- no delay and no waiting period.

†. John 3:18 . .Whoever believes in him is not condemned; but whoever disbelieves stands condemned already.

I take it that "whoever" implicates the disbelievers among even those whose conduct we might even regard as exemplary, admirable, and ultra pious: the veritable poster children of modern Christianity.

†. Matt 7:22-23 . . Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Master, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them: I never knew you. Depart from me, you that work iniquity.


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3 years ago  ::  May 12, 2015 - 7:40PM #8
Posts: 3,398

†. 1Cor 6:9-10 . . Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

The most important category that Paul listed in that passage is "the unrighteous" category. Well; it so happens that the only righteousness that God will accept is the righteousness of God, which is a quality of righteousness impossible to produce by human beings; and that's why it's an imputed righteousness instead of a behavioral righteousness. (Rom 3:21-22)

So even if somebody reforms, and is no longer a fornicator, nor an idolater, nor an adulterer, nor effeminate, nor an LGBT, nor a thief, nor covetous, nor an alcoholic, nor a reviler, nor a swindler; they will still go to hell when they pass on should they leave here without first obtaining the righteousness of God.


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3 years ago  ::  May 16, 2015 - 11:27AM #9
Posts: 3,398

†. Heb 12:14b . . Pursue sanctification, without which no one will see the Lord.

The Greek word for "sanctification" is hagiasmos (hag-ee-as-mos') which means purity; which can be defined as not mixed or adulterated with any other substance or material; for example:

†. 1Cor 5:6-7 . . Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? Clean out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened.

"without which no one will see the Lord"

What is that saying? Does it mean if perchance one of Christ's believing followers fails to achieve purity in this life, they will be lost when they pass on? No; not according to the Bible.

Christ's believing followers all have eternal life; which is a quality of life that's immune to the wrath of God and impervious to the wages of sin.

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you: those who listen to my message, and believe in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

†. Rom 6:23 . .The wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In view of the fact that everyone in heaven is pure; then it only stands to reason that when Christ's believing followers pass on, that's when the circumcision spoken of at Col 2:11 takes over and deceased born-again Christians shed their impure human nature like a dead skin; which indeed it is.

†. Rom 6:6 . . For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with; that we should no longer be slaves to sin

†. Col 3:3-4 . . For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

So; Paul is saying: In view of the fact that purity will characterize your lifestyle in the future, then what the hay; why not be pure now?

But not to worry. Should one of Christ's believing followers fail to become pure, it is the Lord's pleasure to ensure they are pure with him where he is no matter how they were natural-born here.

†. Eph 5:25-27 . . Christ loved the church, and gave himself for it; that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

†. Heb 9:13-14 . . For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


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3 years ago  ::  May 19, 2015 - 10:56AM #10
Posts: 3,398

Some of the common forms of dishonesty are:

Half truths
Feigning innocence
Falsifying information
Putting up a front
Double speak
Withholding pertinent facts

After 71 years of human experience on this planet; I've come to the conclusion that there is not even one person on earth who can get through the day without practicing at least one of the forms of dishonesty on that list; and I am positive that anybody who claims to be 100% honest is either delusional, out of touch with themselves, or simply haven't given it much thought.

For example: my wife heard me use the word "dissembling" and was curious to know what it meant. Mind you she's a certified K-6 teacher with college. Well; I told her, dissembling is when you conceal your true feelings by giving people the impression that you feel otherwise.

That's a very common form of dishonesty. People dissemble all the time without even thinking about it because dissembling is inbred; viz: it's one of those social skills that nobody needs to be taught. It comes natural to everyone; even to little children.

Dishonesty is a normal human behavior; people rely upon it. Interactions with their friends, with strangers, with associates, with superiors and loved ones would be very strained indeed without dishonesty. It is just humanly impossible to be honest all the time. In point of fact: it's not smart to be 100% truthful all the time; viz: "Honesty is the best policy" just isn't true; not in the world I live in anyway.

†. Rev 21:8 . . But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

LGBT are often depicted as abominable. Well; the passage above condemns dishonesty to the lake of fire and brimstone right along with the abominable. That's something to think about.

Dishonesty is also banned right along with the abominable from ever entering the holy city; the New Jerusalem.

†. Rev 21:27 . .Nothing unclean and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

That again is something to think about because there are far more people practicing one or more of the forms of dishonesty in the list above than there are practicing LGBT.


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