Important Announcement

See here for an important message regarding the community which has become a read-only site as of October 31.

 
Post Reply
Page 5 of 10  •  Prev 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7 ... 10 Next
Switch to Forum Live View Hell's Population Clock
2 years ago  ::  May 27, 2015 - 10:49AM #41
weberhome02
Posts: 3,398


Common Objection: The Bible says that God has never actually desired sacrifices and offerings. For example:


"For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. But this is what I commanded them, saying: Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you." (Jer 7:22-23)


In sacrifice and offering you have not delighted, but you have given me an open ear. Burnt offering and sin offering you have not required. (Psalm 40:6)


For you do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it; you do not delight in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and a contrite heart-- these, O God, you will not despise. (Ps 51:16-17)


For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. (Hos 6:6)


Response: The objection's interpretation of those passage effectively invalidates the entire God-given book of Leviticus; and also makes Christ look pretty stupid because it was his belief that not one jot nor one tittle of Israel's covenanted law would pass away until all is fulfilled. (Matt 5:17-19)


The point is: God prefers that men not sin; but rather conduct themselves in a manner that needs no atonement. In other words: atonements are a contingency rather than the ideal.


As for Hos 6:6, the mercy that God desires is not His extended to you, but yours extended to your fellow man; viz: rituals are unacceptable substitutes for things like kindness, charity, lenience, sympathy, courtesy and/or compassion.


Ps 51:16-17 requires an explanation because it's a special case. David penned it as a result of his tryst with Bathsheba and his engineering of the death of her husband Uriah. God allows no atonements for those two sins: both are unforgivable death offenses under the terms and conditions of the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God..


†. Ex 21:13-14 . . If a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, you shall take him away from my very altar and put him to death.


†. Num 35:31 . . Do not accept a ransom for the life of a murderer, who deserves to die. He must surely be put to death.


†. Lev 20:10 . . If a man commits adultery with another man's wife-- with the wife of his neighbor --both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.


†. Deut 22:22 . . If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die-- both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman --so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.


In other words: If the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God stipulated sacrifices for premeditated murder and adultery; David would have offered them.


Pop Clock Update: 126 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 7,582,050 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


========================================

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 30, 2015 - 4:02PM #42
weberhome02
Posts: 3,398


Q: Can you cite an Old Testament example where God approved sacrificing a consenting adult?


A: Abraham lived a pretty good number of years before Israel's covenanted law was instituted. Therefore, he wasn't obligated to comply with it because biblical law doesn't have ex post facto jurisdiction; viz: it isn't retroactive. (Rom 4:15, Rom 5:13, and Gal 3:17)


So then, Abraham was in a position to offer a human sacrifice without incurring guilt; which he did.


†. Gen 22:1-2 . . Now it came about after these things, that God tested Abraham, and said to him: Abraham! And he said: Here I am. And He said: Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah; and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you.


Did Abraham slay Isaac? No, but did Abraham offer Isaac? Yes.


†. Gen 22:9 . .Then they came to the place of which God had told him. And Abraham built an altar there and placed the wood in order; and he bound Isaac his son and laid him on the altar, upon the wood.


You see, once a gift dedicated to God is placed on an altar, it's a done deal-- whether the offering is dead or alive makes no difference. In point of fact, the letter to Hebrews credits Abraham with offering his son in obedience to God's command.


†. Heb 11:17 . . By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son


So then, the next question is: was Isaac a consenting adult?


Well; according to Gen 22:6-7, Isaac was old enough to shoulder a load of wood; so he wasn't a little boy like so many people like to think he was. Plus, he was mature enough to understand the particulars of a burnt offering.


†. Gen 22:8b . . And the two of them walked on together.


What do you suppose they talked about on their way up the hill? Well; it's not too difficult to figure out. I think it was right about then that Abraham and Isaac took time-out for a heart to heart. And I don't think it was pleasant. Abraham informed his son of their real purpose there that day and of what God required. Isaac must have been shocked and terrified. How could he not be?


It must have taken quite a bit of salesmanship to convince Isaac that taking his life was the right thing to do. He was much younger and could easily outrun his aging dad. So if this was going to work, it would require his son's whole-hearted consent because there was no one there to assist Abraham in the event that Isaac chickened out. Besides, Isaac had to agree or the whole affair would disintegrate into a ritual murder.


The servants were behind, guarding the burro. And God could not interfere because offerings are worship; and worship is supposed to be voluntary rather than at the point of a gun. So all in all, the success of this entire event hinged upon the free will of just two people that day: Abraham and Isaac; a father and his son.


If you were Abraham, how would you approach Isaac to convince him to let you slit his throat and incinerate his body to ashes?


Fortunately, Abraham was a man of God who walked with God. So his influence with Isaac was fully functional and effective. If there was one thing about his dad that Isaac knew was definitely not artificial, it was his relationship with Yhvh. If his dad said that God wanted Abraham's son for a burnt offering, then by thunder that is what God said. I believe Isaac was confident his dad would never lie about such a thing. He might lie about other things, but not about that one especially since Isaac was a son whom Abraham dearly loved.


Isaac is quite the hero among instructed Jews. To this day; a prayer included in the additional service for Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish new year, culminates with these words: "Remember today the Binding Of Isaac with mercy to his descendants."


Ancient rabbis attested that the final resurrection of the dead would take place "through the merits of Isaac, who offered himself upon the altar." (Pesikta deRav Kahana, 32)


In other words: the closing prayer of Rosh Hashanah, and Pesikta deRav Kahana, 32 assume that Isaac was not only offered; but also consenting; which indeed he was; no doubt about it.


Q: But God stopped Abraham from cutting his son with the knife. Doesn't that prove God abhors human sacrifice?


A: See above in regards to the status of offerings placed upon an altar. In other words: Isaac didn't have to be slain in order to qualify as a valid sacrifice, he only had to be offered.


Pop Clock Update: 129 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 7,762,575 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


========================================

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 02, 2015 - 9:30AM #43
weberhome02
Posts: 3,398


†. Ex 20:5 . . I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me.


Q: How is that fair? holding children responsible for what their parents do?


A: Ex 20:5-- along with Ex 34:7, Num 14:18, and Deut 5:9 --is often construed to mean that children are held responsible for their parents' sins; but that isn't it. What we're looking at here is collateral damage. It is apparently God's prerogative to get back at people by going after their posterity and/or the people they govern.


There's a horrific example of collateral damage located at Num 16:25-34. Another is the Flood. No doubt quite a few underage children drowned in that event due to their parents' wickedness. The same happened to the children in Sodom and Gomorrah. Ham's punishment for humiliating Noah was a curse upon his son Canaan. And during Moses' face-off with Pharaoh, God moved against the man's firstborn son along with all those of his subjects. But the capper is the 70,000 Israeli citizens who went to their deaths through no fault of their own because their king breached Israel's covenanted law by ordering an illegal census.


There are times when God chooses to judge people by going after not only themselves; but also the things that pertain to them; including, but not limited to, their progeny. I don't quite understand the logic of that kind of justice; but then again: I don't try; I just go along with it; primarily because it's futile to find fault with God.


Q: Come on now. Does anybody really "hate" God?


A: As a rule; God doesn't measure one's love and/or hatred for Himself in accordance with their feelings, but in accordance to their loyalty and/or disloyalty. In other words: even if somebody doesn't particularly like God as a person; He can deal with that just so long as they do as He says and give Him the respect that His position deserves.


In the Army we called that Military Courtesy. In other words; I saluted officers, got out of their way, spoke to them in a respectful tone of voice, and did what they said not because they were especially likeable as persons, but because they were the ones in command. The same principle applies to Christ.


†. John 14:15 . . If you love me, you will comply with what I command.


†. John 14:21 . .Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me.


†. John 14:23-24 . . If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching . . He who does not love me will not obey my teaching.


†. John 15:14 . .You are my friends if you do as I wish.


FYI: There are a number of Christians at large who honestly believe that church attendance is an adequate substitute for compliance with God's wishes. Well; it's not.


†. 1Sam 15:22-23 . . Has Yhvh as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of Yhvh? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of divination, and insubordination is as iniquity and idolatry.


Pop Clock Update: 132 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 7,943,100 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


========================================

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 05, 2015 - 9:11AM #44
weberhome02
Posts: 3,398


Q: Doesn't Acts 2:24-33 teach that Jesus went to hell at his death?


A: According to Acts 2:24-32 he actually went to haides (a.k.a. hades) which is an ambiguous koiné Greek word for the netherworld-- an afterlife sphere where everybody goes when they pass on; both the good and the bad and the young and the old. Although haides can imply fiery suffering in the afterlife (e.g. Luke 16:23) the specific koiné word for fiery suffering is geena (gheh'-en-nah) for example Matt 5:22, Matt 5:29-30, Matt 23:15, Matt 23:33, and Luke 12:5


The actual netherworld location to which Christ departed was a pleasant situation rather than an incinerator.


†. Luke 23:39-43 . . One of the criminals hanging beside him scoffed: So you're the Messiah, are you? Prove it by saving yourself-- and us, too, while you're at it! But the other criminal protested: Aren't you afraid of God? Not even when you're dying? We deserve to die for our evil deeds, but this man hasn't done anything wrong. Then he said: Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. And Jesus replied: I assure you; today you will be with me in paradise.


The koiné Greek word for "paradise" is paradeisos (par-ad'-i-sos) which means: a park; which Webster's defines as: 1) a tract of land that often includes lawns, woodland, and pasture attached to a country house and is used as a game preserve and for recreation, and/or 2) a piece of ground in or near a city or town kept for ornament and recreation, and/or 3) an area maintained in its natural state as a public property.


Pop Clock Update: 135 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 8,123,625 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


========================================

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 08, 2015 - 3:16PM #45
weberhome02
Posts: 3,398


As if hell isn't bad enough, people are in it as their selves; viz: they are never going to be free from their own personalities-- their phobias, their hang-ups, their inner conflicts, their memories, their anger, their hostility, their rivalries, their prejudice, their bias, their angst, their gender issues, their resentments, their regrets, their disappointments, their bitterness, their animosity, their passions, and their appetites.


Hell is even more of a hell than you might think because, having missed out on the regeneration about which Christ spoke at John 3:3-8, people take who they are right along with them down there. Thus; suicide is not a good way to relieve depression. Depressed people and/or despondent people, take that low state of mind right along with them to the other side; and their sorrow will be even more intensified in fire when they realize that as bad as things were up here on the surface, their situation up here wasn't nearly as bad as their situation down below.


You can escape poor health via death, you can escape credit card debt, you can escape an abusive spouse, you can escape taxes, you can escape a physical handicap, you can escape pimples, you can escape a ruined reputation, you can escape a blighted life, you can escape a bully, you can escape despots and tyrants, you can escape a life of neither promise nor future, you can escape prison, you can escape grinding poverty, and you can escape the Mafioso; but nobody can escape themselves.


Pop Clock Update: 138 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 8,304,150 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


========================================

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2015 - 11:07AM #46
weberhome02
Posts: 3,398


†. Heb 10:26-28 . . If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.


If you know the Bible, then you're aware that lies are sins. Yet you continue to lie; don't you? Every time you lie, you commit a deliberate sin because you know full well that lies are sins. You've probably been taught that sexual fantasies are sins. Yet you continue to have them don't you? Every time you indulge in a sexual fantasy, you commit a deliberate sin because you were taught that sexual fantasies are acts of mental immorality. If you know the Bible, then you know from Matt 12:36 that thoughtless remarks are sin, yet you continue to make thoughtless remarks. How about traffic laws? When you deliberately speed, fail to come to a complete stop at stop signs, run red lights, pass illegally, and/or J-walk; you are committing deliberate sins because you know from Rom 13:1-7, and 1Pet 2:13-15 it is a sin to break traffic laws; yet you continue to break those laws anyway.


Therefore, performance-oriented Christians who believe there is no acquittal of any kind available for deliberate sins; are going to hell. They have to go there because it is their belief that there is no acquittal for deliberate sinners. But I am willing to bet money that none of them who believe that way really and truly worry about going to hell. I would like to ask them: Where's your panic? Where's your terror? Where's your anxiety? No, they don't believe their own beliefs; because if they did, they would feel terror, anxiety, worry, and panic; because hell is something to be feared; and it is feared by everybody who truly believes in it.


†. Luke 12:4-5 . . Dear friends, don't be afraid of those who want to kill you. They can only kill the body; they cannot do any more to you. But I'll tell you whom to fear. Fear God, who has the power to kill people and then throw them into hell.


If the beliefs of performance-oriented Christians were true-- that there is no acquittal available for intentional sins under either the old or the new covenant --then let me ask them another question: just what advantage (if any) does your version of Christianity have over Judaism, and what advantage would the new covenant have over the old one if neither Christianity nor Judaism offered an acquittal for intentional sins? There would be no advantage whatsoever; and the Gospel wouldn't be good news, but rather, it would be old news-- in point of fact, Christianity would be so redundant as to not even be worth the bother.


If, as some interpret Heb 10:26-28, there is no acquittal of any kind available for deliberate sin, then David, one of the holiest men in the Bible, should have gone to hell because he committed adultery and premeditated murder, knowing full well that both of those acts are sins, and knowing full well that the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per Deut 29:9-15 mandates the death penalty for both offenses (Ex 21:12-14, Lev 20:10) and also provides no absolution whatsoever for scofflaws. (Num 15:30-31)


Performance-oriented Christians believe in a version of Christianity that nobody can possibly live up to, not even they, because there is not a day goes by that even performance-oriented Christians themselves commit at least one act, think at least one thought, or speak at least one word, that they know in advance is wrong, yet go ahead anyway. I suspect that a fair number of them are fully aware they have no hope of success; and have given up and resigned themselves to hell and eternal suffering because it's just too difficult to go to the other place.


Pop Clock Update: 141 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 8,484,675 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


========================================

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2015 - 12:09PM #47
weberhome02
Posts: 3,398


Q:
What sane father would condemn His own children, the work of His creation, to eternal punishment simply because they don't agree with him?


A: While true that the God of Genesis manufactured everybody, that does not eo ipso make everybody His children; for example just because Eli Whitney is the father of the cotton gin, and Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak are the fathers of the Apple II computer doesn't make those machines their children.


In other words: the God of Genesis is everybody's creator, yes; but He is not everybody's parent. No; by default, everybody is merely an organic creature manufactured from dust and members of Adam's family rather than God's. It's necessary to undergo a special birth in order to get in God's family. All other claimants are frauds, and have no right whatsoever to say God is their real father.


†. John 1:12-13 . .To all who accepted him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- children not born of natural descent, nor of human decision, nor of a husband's passion, but born of God.


Bottom line is: God doesn't condemn His own children to eternal punishment; but He won't hesitate to condemn yours if they neglect to follow Christ's instructions.


†. John 3:6 . . Don't be surprised at my statement that you must be born again.


Q: Ever consider the fact that the Bible nowhere mentions that people go to heaven or hell at the moment of death?


A: I am unaware of that "fact" which in reality, is not a fact at all, but rather, simply a deficiency in someone's own personal knowledge of the Bible.


Paul was confident that at his departure, he would be with The Lord.


†. Php 1:23 . . I desire to depart and be with Christ


To "be with Christ" is to be in heaven because according to Acts 2:32-36 that is where the Bible's Jesus currently resides at his Father's right hand.


For believers such as myself, to be absent from the body; is to be present with The Lord.


†. 2Cor 5:6-8 . .Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with The Lord.


When the rich man and the beggar Lazarus died in Luke 16:19-31, the angels carried Lazarus to Abraham's section of the netherworld.


†. Luke 16:22 . .The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side.


It's obvious from the text that Abraham wasn't in the fiery section of the netherworld at the time. It could be argued he wasn't in heaven at the time either; but that would certainly not be true today. If Paul expected to be with The Lord at his passing; then I have no doubt Abraham and Lazarus are now with The Lord too.


Christ gave a fellow prisoner his word that they would both enter a paradise the very day of their crucifixions.


†. Luke 23:43 . . Jesus answered him; I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.


If Christ and his fellow prisoner went to a paradise the very day of their deaths, then can there be any doubt that the rich man went to the fiery section of the netherworld the very day of his own death, and Lazarus went to Abraham's section on the very day of his death?


Upon comparing texts, it becomes clear that nobody went to heaven prior to Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection. Old Testament saints went to comfortable accommodations in the netherworld where Abraham was at the time of the events narrated in Luke 16:19-31. And the damned went to you know where; and they are still there to this very day yearning for a damp swab to soothe their parched tongues.


Pop Clock Update: 144 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 8,665,200 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


========================================

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2015 - 12:50PM #48
weberhome02
Posts: 3,398


Objection: The idea of a hell didn't originate in either the Jewish or Christian religion.


Response: So in that objector's judicious estimation: since the Bible wasn't the first to talk about a hell; then the Bible's hell is eo ipso a false concept because somebody else brought it up first?


(chuckle) Great logic! I therefore allege that the little dwarf planet Pluto didn't exist until it was discovered February 18, 1930 by Clyde W. Tombaugh. And also: when a tree falls in the forest, and there's nobody around to hear it, then the crash doesn't make any noise.


Pop Clock Update: 147 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 8,845,725 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


========================================

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 20, 2015 - 9:25AM #49
weberhome02
Posts: 3,398


Q: Ever consider the fact that the Bible nowhere mentions that people go to heaven or hell at the moment of death?


A: I am unaware of that "fact" which in reality, is not a fact at all, but rather, simply a deficiency in someone's own personal knowledge of the Bible.


Paul was confident that at his departure, he would be with The Lord.


†. Php 1:23 . . I desire to depart and be with Christ


To "be with Christ" is to be in heaven because according to Acts 2:32-36 that is where the Bible's Jesus currently resides at his Father's right hand.


For believers such as myself, to be absent from the body; is to be present with The Lord.


†. 2Cor 5:6-8 . .Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with The Lord.


When the rich man and the beggar Lazarus died in Luke 16:19-31, the angels carried Lazarus to Abraham's section of the netherworld.


†. Luke 16:22 . .The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side.


It's obvious from the text that Abraham wasn't in the fiery section of the netherworld at the time. It could be argued he wasn't in heaven at the time either; but that would certainly not be true today. If Paul expected to be with The Lord at his passing; then I have no doubt Abraham and Lazarus are now with The Lord too.


Christ gave a fellow prisoner his word that they would both enter a paradise the very day of their crucifixions.


†. Luke 23:43 . . Jesus answered him; I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.


If Christ and his fellow prisoner went to a paradise the very day of their deaths, then can there be any doubt that the rich man went to the fiery section of the netherworld the very day of his own death, and Lazarus went to Abraham's section on the very day of his death?


Upon comparing texts, it becomes clear that nobody went to heaven prior to Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection. Old Testament saints went to comfortable accommodations in the netherworld where Abraham was at the time of the events narrated in Luke 16:19-31. And the damned went to you know where; and they are still there to this very day yearning for a damp swab to soothe their parched tongues.


Pop Clock Update: 150 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 9,026,250 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


========================================

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 23, 2015 - 11:35AM #50
weberhome02
Posts: 3,398


Objection: The idea of a hell didn't originate in either the Jewish or Christian religion.


Response: So in that objector's judicious estimation: since the Bible wasn't the first to talk about a hell; then the Bible's hell is eo ipso a false concept because somebody else brought it up first?


(chuckle) Great logic! I therefore allege that the little dwarf planet Pluto didn't exist until it was discovered February 18, 1930 by Clyde W. Tombaugh. And also: when a tree falls in the forest, and there's nobody around to hear it, then the crash doesn't make any noise.


Pop Clock Update: 153 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 9,206,775 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


========================================

Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 5 of 10  •  Prev 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7 ... 10 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook