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Flag weberhome02 January 21, 2015 6:10 AM EST


According to Jesus Christ's testimony as a credible expert witness in all matters pertaining to the afterlife; most of the world's responsible souls haven't been making it to safety when they cross over to the other side.


†. Luke 13:22-24 . . And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. Then said one unto him, master, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them: Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.


†. Matt 7:13-14 . . Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.


†. Matt 22:14 . . For many are called, but few are chosen.


Webster's defines "many" as consisting of, or amounting to, a large but indefinite number; while "few" is defined as consisting of, or amounting to, only a small number; viz: relative to many then, few is the lesser. Bear with me while I flesh this out.


According to the US Census Bureau: as of Jan 20, 2015 @ 01:46 pm EST, the resident population in the United States was approximately 320,196,761 with a death rate of approximately one every 12 seconds; which translates to an average of 7,200 American deaths of all ages, races, and genders during just one 24-hour calendar day.


According to 2009 US Census data; roughly 27.3% of America's daily deaths are under the age of 19, which would indicate that approximately 5,234 of the current daily death rate of 7,200 per 24 hours are adults. Giving the "many" the benefit of the doubt by limiting their maximum percentage to 51%, would indicate a minimum of 2,669 American adults transferring to perdition every day: which translates to roughly 111 per hour.


That's a very conservative estimate as Jesus Christ didn't really specify exact percentages to represent the quantities of "few" and "many". But just think: by the time CBS completes its half hour evening news report, a bare-bones minimum of 55 Americans become new arrivals in the fiery sector of the netherworld.


Using the ratio of 2,669 condemned souls per 320,196,761 population: computing the number of condemned souls worldwide from a currently estimated global population of 7, 219,145,118 people, would suggest something like 60,175 new arrivals in the fiery sector of the netherworld every 24 hours; which translates to approximately 2,507 souls every sixty minutes on the clock.


That rate would fill the 51,800 seats of the new Yankee Stadium to capacity in roughly 20 hours and 40 minutes. In other words: if the world's daily number of condemned souls started filing into the stadium at 06:00 am this morning, then by 02:40 am tomorrow, the stadium would be full to capacity.


Christmas and New Year's are even worse. A study done of 26 years of death certificates shows that coronary fatalities are, on average, 11.9% higher on those days than any other days of the year; with non-heart deaths spiking to 12.2% higher.


Traditional Christianity's hell never closes; no, not at all: it's open for business 24/7/365 nonstop and indifferent to global warming, Wall Street crashes, massive layoffs, outsourcing, high school shootings, terrorism, tsunamis, earthquakes, nuclear meltdowns, air, water, and soil pollution, freeway pile-ups, brown-outs, threatened species, gasoline prices, student debt, GMO, trade deficits, protests, Federal debt, factory recalls, overpopulation, desertification, genocides, revolutions, civil wars, acid rain, road rage, oil spills, conscious decoupling, ISIS, gay marriage, Obamacare, blood diamonds, fracking, twerking, and/or Letterman's retirement.


If traditional Christianity's perception of Jesus Christ and the hereafter is correct; then it's apparent that souls never stop cascading into the pits of hell in an endless procession like the unbelievable millions of poultry broilers passing annually through Tyson chicken-processing plants on their way to Wendy's, McDonalds, Carl's Junior, Jack in the Box, Burger King, In'n'Out Burger, KFC, A&W, Arby's, Dairy Queen, Taco Bell, et al; and to supermarkets and restaurants all over the USA and wherever else Tyson vends its meats. The slaughtering and the butchering never stop.


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Flag weberhome02 January 24, 2015 9:02 AM EST


†. Matt 13:42 . . there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


I was baptized an infant into the Roman Catholic Church; and was eventually enrolled in catechism where I completed First Holy Communion and Confirmation. Although catechism did a good job of instilling within me the reality of hell's eternal fires; it wasn't until I saw a painting by Gustave Doré depicting a scene from Dante Alighieri's Inferno that I realized the degree of despair gripping the minds and hearts of people in hell.


People down there know it's permanent; that's what makes hell so much worse than any other source of misery one can possibly imagine. If only they could see a light at the end of the tunnel; but that's just it: there is no end of the tunnel; it loops, like a donut within which they just go round and around and around.


They say hope springs eternal in the human heart. Well; not down there. No; down there hope is futile. The fires are bad enough; but it's the permanence of hell that I would imagine hurts the most.


Pop Clock Update: 3 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 180,525 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


FYI: I renounced Rome in 1968; and in time underwent baptism into Protestantism by a Conservative Baptist minister.

Flag weberhome02 January 28, 2015 11:38 AM EST


I sometimes wish there were tour buses to hell so people could see what's in store for them down there; and not only the degree of suffering that people can expect in the next life, but also hell's impact upon the human mind.


People have been filtering into perdition not only since the time of Christ, but since before the Step Pyramid of Djoser, and even before the Flood. I won't speculate how many years that might be, but homo sapiens is thought by some to have achieved full behavioral modernity something like 50,000 years ago. Whether that extends clear on back to Adam and Eve I have no clue; but just think: if it does, then Cain and others from his era have been down in the netherworld ever since before the days of cave art.


It's difficult for the human mind to appreciate 50,000 years. I've been on the Earth for just 70, and I've noticed that my childhood is so far in the past to me now as to seem more like a fantasy than a memory. But you know; when you're talking about eternity, 50,000 years isn't even a drop in the bucket. If it were a drop in the bucket, it would be a bucket with no bottom; which is roughly akin to the futility of a gnat attempting to drink up the Atlantic ocean. It would also be akin to Forrest Gump thinking he could fill a sieve with water faster by dipping it into a bucket instead of using the tap.


But just think: time stands still in hell: it's for the now; it's an existence. People who arrived there yesterday didn't begin doing time in jail like Lindsay Lohan expecting to get out some day; nor is perdition a temporary tour of duty like shipping out to Afghanistan. No, people in hell are in it as perpetual residents; they're in a rut.


They go year, after year, after year, after year, with no relief from the pain and discomfort: no vacations, no recreation, no reading materials, and no hobbies-- there's absolutely nothing to do but reminisce and writhe in fire. The mental atrophy, and the boredom that must result from that kind of mindless existence is beyond estimation.


In life, everybody enjoys God's blessings; even the really bad people. We're all breathing fresh air, basking in sunshine, drinking cool water, savoring tasty foods, listening to birds chirp, star gazing at night, throwing snow balls at each other in winter, river rafting, fishing, snow skiing, tending gardens, pruning shrubs, greeting friends during the holidays, spending days with grandkids; and all that sort of thing. In the Bible's hell, there are no blessings of any kind at all: only perpetual sadness, vexation, despair, and want.


In hell's unruly society; it's reasonable to expect quarrels, bickering, hard feelings, vendettas, rivalry, selfishness, insensitivity, irritation, aggravation, and ugly words exchanged between people. Is there really any good reason to be courteous and/or respect your fellow man's human rights in the Bible's hell; or to be kind, forgiving, affable, genial, courteous, cordial, charitable, altruistic, tolerant, generous, and patient? I was once discussing the netherworld with a co-worker and he remarked: "Hell won't be so bad; I'll have plenty of friends down there". No he won't.


And the din: think of the volume of noise down there with all the wailing and sobbing, and the screams, shrieks, yelps, howls, and gnashing teeth. Conditions are really bad, and everyone is sad, blue, and lonely. After a few years of the conditions I'm describing, I should think most folks break, and go mad from the stress.


But just imagine bringing with you a craving for tobacco with none available. Or longing for a cocktail with no liquor in sight. A desire for music, with no way to produce it. A skill for writing, with no pen and paper. Yearning for a walk out in nature, with no world to do it in.


People in the Bible's hell will never again smell a sea breeze, sit in the shade of a tree, take deep breaths of mountain-fresh air, play at sports, hear a bird chirp, see a sunset, watch a lunar eclipse, jog in the park, strum a guitar, enjoy a Christmas dinner with loved ones; nor make little pigs of themselves gobbling barbecued spare ribs and corn on the 4th of July.


Sports and recreation are gone: no more World Series, no more Super Bowl, no more Olympics, no more Las Vegas, no more Indian casinos, no more lottery, no more Lego World, no more Sea World, no more NASCAR, no more golf, no more surfing, et al.


No baths, no showers, no trips to grandma's house, no sleep, no TV, no radio, no iPods, no computers, no Twitter, no texting, no FaceBook, no YouTube, no MySpace, no internet, no clean sheets, no breakfast, no lunch, and no dinner. No snacks, no gum, no candy, no flowers, no parks, no rivers, no snow, no seasons, no picnics, no malls, no fast food, no trades, no careers, no trendy fashions, no jewelry, no cosmetics, no concerts, no operas, and no hobbies; absolutely nothing of this world that brings people the pleasures and the satisfactions of just being alive.


No pets are allowed in the Bible's hell and no flowers or vegetation of any kind. The absence of birds, fish, and animals of course precludes the citizens of hell ever again spending a day at the zoo. The one advantage of the lack of pets and vegetation in hell is the absence of fleas and allergies. I suppose you could say that's at least one good thing about it. There's a bright side to everything I guess; even to that place.


Pop Clock Update: 7 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 421,225 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


FYI: I renounced Rome in 1968; and in time underwent baptism into Protestantism by a Conservative Baptist minister.

Flag weberhome02 January 31, 2015 10:56 AM EST


Through me; the way to the eternal city.
Through me; the way to eternal sadness.
Through me; the way to lost people.


Justice moved my supreme maker:
I was shaped by divine power,
By highest wisdom, and by primal love.


Before me, nothing was created
That is not eternal: and eternally I endure.
Abandon all hope, you that enter here.


The Divine Comedy
by Dante Alighieri
Inferno: canto 3, v.1-9


Dante labeled Inferno a city; apparently indicating it's a penal colony of a sorts, which, in a manner of speaking; it is.


The Divine Comedy is called a comedy because it has a happy ending as opposed to a tragedy; at least for Dante anyway. The souls he and Virgil pass along the way through the Inferno portion of Dante's odyssey will never, nor anon, have a happy ending; hence the sign above the entrance to the netherworld: "Abandon all hope, you that enter here."


Webster's defines "despair' as: to no longer have any hope or belief that a situation will improve or change. Well; down in the Inferno section of Dante's concept of the netherworld, despair is a way of life.


Pop Clock Update: 10 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 601,750 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 February 3, 2015 11:25 AM EST


†. Luke 13:4-5 . . And what about the eighteen men who died when a tower of Siloam fell on them? Were they the worst sinners in Jerusalem? No, and I tell you again that unless you repent, you will likewise perish.


The koiné Greek word for "tower" in that passage is purgos (poor'-gos) which is an ambiguous word that can mean not only an isolated structure like a skyscraper; but also a special battlement which protrudes from the face of a castle's curtain wall-- consisting of crenellations, merlons, and machicolations --providing occupants a tactical advantage for observing and defending the curtain wall's exterior face. Sometimes though, towers were simply architectural facades that made otherwise insipid stone walls aesthetically pleasing to the eye.


In the days prior to steel reinforcing bar and structural steel beams, purgos (which were often constructed of either stones or bricks or wood) weren't all that stable, and sometimes crumbled; thus detaching themselves from the curtain wall like an old swallow's nest; resulting in pieces raining down on whoever happened to be standing below. The tower depicted in Luke was possibly a decorative part of an architectural enclosure surrounding the pool of Siloam. (cf. John 9:7)


The people who were killed when that tower collapsed, weren't killed by the hand of God. No, they were just simply in the wrong place at the wrong time; viz: it was just dumb luck. It's like when people plan all month for a camping trip in the mountains. Upon arrival, they set up camp; and after lunch, walk a hiking trail. Just then, a tree limb, that's been silently growing in the forest for who knows how many years, suddenly decides to snap off and fall to earth right then; subsequently killing one of the campers just as they walk under it.


One minute earlier and it would have missed. One minute later and it would have missed. But no, the limb falls right on cue as if the forces of nature conspired to hold that tree limb in place till just the right moment; waiting for that one specific person to walk under it.


In a similar incident Friday, Feb 19, 2010 --a centuries-old Mosque minaret in Meknes Morocco collapsed and fell into a crowd of worshippers during prayer time, killing 41.


Saturday, June 27, 2010, a 6-month-old baby girl was killed and her mother seriously injured when the pair were struck by a falling tree branch in New York City's Central Park Zoo. The girl's father was taking their picture near the sea lion exhibit when a branch above them suddenly snapped off and fell.


On Tuesday, July 3, 2007; nineteen year-old Ramiro Gonzalez was returning home to Nyssa Oregon from a week-end honeymoon in northern California with his bride Idalia asleep in the back seat when their 1997 Pontiac Grand Am hit a cow twenty miles east of Burns. The Pontiac went off the road, through a fence, and burst into flames. Idalia escaped with only minor injuries, but Ramiro died at the Ste. Charles Medical Center in Bend the very next day.


Ramiro and his bride didn't get to live in a home of their own for even one single minute of their marriage-- never had a baby, never joined the PTA, never saved for college, never went to ballet lessons, nor to soccer or little league, never went on family picnics, never took home movies and photos at Christmas, Easter, or birthdays, never went to the beach and built sand castles --no, their entire future, and all their dreams of family life, were shattered in an instant by a lame-brained bovine; and Ramiro wasn't even 20 years old yet.


March 20, 2008; fifty-seven year old Judy Kay Zagorski, of Pigeon, Michigan, was sitting in the front seat of her father's boat going 25 knots on the Atlantic Ocean side of Vaca Key in Florida, when a Spotted Eagle Ray, with a wingspan of 5 to 6 feet; leaped up out of the water-- for who knows what reason --and collided with Zagorski, knocking her backwards onto the deck of the boat. She died from the impact. Judy's sister, standing next to her, was not injured.


On a November morning in 1998, Alan Pakula climbed into his Volvo station wagon and began the 100-mile drive from Manhattan to his Long Island house. The acclaimed movie director of Sophie's Choice, All The President's Men, and The Pelican Brief, had made that trip countless times with no incident.


As the 70 year-old Pakula neared exit 49 on the Long Island Expressway just before noon, the tires of a vehicle ahead of him flipped a 7-foot piece of steel rod into the air. Within seconds, the rod shot through Pakula's windshield, smashing into his forehead, killing him almost instantly.


Death often comes when people least expect it. As a rule, they don't usually get up in the morning planning it to be their last day on earth. The 169,752 killed, and 127,294 listed as missing, in more than eleven countries by the tsunami of 2004, were taken by surprise, and given no warning it was to be their last day on earth.


The 2,829 people who perished in a terrorist attack on the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001, and the 189 who died in the Pentagon, didn't go in to work expecting their lives to end before lunch that day. No, people's lives often end while they still have obligations and commitments, aspirations, things to do, places to go, and people to see; when a car accident, train wreck, act of nature, plane crash, crime, heart attack, or stroke puts an abrupt end to every plan they ever made.


Tuesday, Jan 12, 2010, a 7.0 earthquake struck Port au Prince Haiti right out of the blue subsequently causing the loss of more than 200,000 lives. A similar act of nature on March 11, 2011, left 25,000 dead and/or missing in Japan.


Okeechobee woman Dawn Johnston, 38, was killed Wednesday June 30, 2010 after part of a portable toilet crashed through her car's windshield. Dawn was driving south on SR 15 shortly after 11 a.m. when two portable toilets fell from the trailer of a pickup truck traveling north,. The portable toilets shattered when they hit the road, and a piece of one of them crashed through the woman's windshield, striking her. Johnston's car then veered off the road and collided with a tree.


A rain-saturated hillside above the Stillaguamish River on the outskirts of the rural town of Oso in the State of Washington gave way March 22, 2014 leaving behind a current death toll of 41 souls. The landslide happened to suddenly and so rapidly that nobody saw it coming and/or had the slightest chance of getting out of the way. Listed among the dead and missing was a four-month old infant.


Freak incidents like those listed above can happen to anybody in the form of a stray bullet from a drive-by, lightening strike, gas explosion, choking on a piece of meat, electrocution, earthquake, a drunk driver, a fall in the bath tub; bricks dropped from an overpass, or any number of out-of-the-blue surprises. I don't think the Lord was saying that repentance will protect people from dying in an unexpected incident, but rather, that if they don't start thinking about the afterlife now, while they have the chance; then they risk being caught off guard by sudden death where there will be no time to think; and they'll find themselves suddenly thrust into the afterlife a lot sooner than they ever expected.


I was taught in catechism that repentance always means sorrow and regret for one's sins; but I don't think that's what the Lord was getting at.


The koiné Greek word for "repent" in the Lord's statement is metanoeo (met-an-o-eh'-o) which means: to think differently; viz: to reconsider-- in other words: to change one's mind and/or change one's direction.


I was also taught in catechism that repentance and confession of one's sins are joined at the hip; so to speak. But confession of sins is not the emphasis in Luke 13:4-5; metanoeo is the emphasis.


The Lord preceded the statement recorded in Luke 13:4-5 with another like it.


†. Luke 13:1-3 . .There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answered and said to them: Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.


The record doesn't explain why Pilate executed those men in particular; nor even where the executions took place. But just for brevity's sake, I'll assume for now that those particular men were known insurrectionists, and the executions took place on the grounds of the Temple compound in Jerusalem while the men were there to worship. In other words: the men were pounced upon in a place they would never suspect; and Pilate's soldiers sprung on the Galileans so suddenly and so efficiently that the men had no chance to either escape or to defend themselves.


It's at a time like that when your religion of choice had better be the right one because you'll have neither time nor opportunity to reconsider and switch to another.


†. Ecc 9:10-12 . . For the time of mischance comes to all. And a man cannot even know his time. As fishes are enmeshed in a fatal net, and as birds are trapped in a snare, so men are caught at the time of calamity, when it comes upon them without warning.


Pop Clock Update: 13 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 782,275 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 February 6, 2015 8:11 AM EST


Right Back Atcha


I once heard President Obama reply to criticism with almost those exact same words; viz: he didn't deny the truth of the criticism, but instead employed the age-old tactic of accusing his critic of the very same things; which, I guess in his mind; somehow mitigated his own culpability; but the honorable response would have been for him to man-up and admit his conduct was unbecoming rather than stoop to recriminations.


It's very common for people to respond to criticism the same way Mr. Obama did. It's all the same as saying: Who are you to talk? Well; regardless of who someone is to talk, if the criticism is true; then it stands; viz: recriminations are futile. All they do is pull someone down with you so you don't go down alone.


I predict there's going to be a quite a bit of resentment and indignation at the Great White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15 when the dead see people in white who they know to be guilty of the very same things for which they are being sentenced to the reservoir of flaming sulfur.


Human nature is funny. If I criticize a tree, it doesn't react. If I criticize a spider; it doesn't react. If I criticize a Guinea pig, it doesn't react. If I criticize a parakeet, it doesn't react. But if I criticize a homo sapiens; it becomes defensive. It's a curious behavior.


So; how might I describe human nature? I think I could accurately describe it as both judgmental and defensive.


†. Rom 2:15 . .Their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or else excusing one another.


Pop Clock Update: 16 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 962,800 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 February 9, 2015 10:43 AM EST


†. Mark 9:47-48 . . If your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out. It is better to enter the kingdom of God half blind than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell; where the worm never dies and the fire never goes out.


Jesus Christ's caution and warning about the fire and worms didn't reveal anything new. He simply reiterated information that had already been released by an Old Testament prophet roughly 700 years before Christ was born.


†. Isa 66:22-24 . . All humanity will come to worship me from week to week and from month to month. And as they go out, they will see the dead bodies of those who have rebelled against me. For the worms that devour them will never die, and the fire that burns them will never go out. All who pass by will view them with utter loathing.


The human body is organic. So then, how can it survive in eternal flame as perpetual nourishment for those worms? Well; supernatural fire's properties are adjustable. For example: supernatural fire totally incinerated the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah but left unscathed a desert shrub that Moses encountered in the Sinai outback while tending his father-in-law's sheep. But even if eternal fire's properties were dictated by the laws of physics; those laws are easily suspended by the one who created those laws. Compare Dan 3:8-27 where a blistering hot fire left totally unscathed Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego while slaying the guards that threw them in the furnace.


NOTE: The laws of physics are not absolutes. They are created laws; thus subject to revision, modification, and even elimination by the cosmos' manufacturer.


FYI: A worm that thrives in flame is pretty amazing, but not unreasonable. The 4-inch Pompeii worm lives in sea water temperatures of 176° Fahrenheit, hot enough to kill salmonella and sanitize an egg. So I guess if God could create a worm like the Pompeii, it shouldn't be too difficult for Him to create worms that like it even warmer.


Pop Clock Update: 19 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 1>b>,143,325 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 February 12, 2015 8:54 AM EST


†. Ecc 1:2-4 . . Meaningless! Futile! complains the Teacher. Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless. What does a man gain from all his labor at which he toils under the sun? Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever.


The earth is dumber than a spatula; yet easily outlives its human potentate whose IQ is infinitely greater. Take for example the great granite monuments in Yosemite Valley. Tourists to the valley come, and tourists to the valley go; and one day old age catches up with those tourists and they're gone; yet Yosemite's great stones abide decade after decade; century after century. Most children born this day will be dead in 100 years; and those stones won't even notice. Though a child born today may be intelligent enough to eventually understand orbital mechanics and string theory; the stones-- stupid, mute, and uneducated --will easily outlast it.


†. Ecc 2:15-16 . . I thought in my heart: The fate of the fool will overtake me also. What then do I gain by being intelligent? I said in my heart: This is meaningless For the intelligent man, like the fool, will not be long remembered-- in days to come both will be forgotten. Like the fool, the intelligent man too must die.


Pop Clock Update: 22 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 1,323,850 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 February 15, 2015 9:55 AM EST


Judas goats are trained for use in slaughterhouses and herd control. In stockyards, they lead sheep to slaughter; and are also used to lead other animals to specific pens and on to trucks. The term is a reference to the biblical traitor Judas Iscariot.


The phrase has also been used to describe goats utilized to locate feral goats targeted for eradication. They're usually outfitted with a transmitter, painted in red and then released. The goats then locate the remaining herds of feral goats, allowing hunters with tracking devices to find and exterminate them. The red paint marks the goat with the transmitter so the hunters know which one not to shoot.


You know what can be even worse than going to hell? Your own children following you there: and they trusted you.


Here's a sort of cute story I heard once. I don't know if it's true but I guess it sure is pertinent.


A boozing farmer went out to his barn in the dead of night after a snowfall to sneak a pull from his liquor bottle. Just as he got to the barn door he heard something behind him. Turning, the farmer recognized his little boy coming towards him. In amazement he asked the little guy how he ever managed to find his way out to the barn in the dark. His son replied: It was easy; I walked in your footsteps.


Can you just imagine the anguish that parents feel in the netherworld knowing that they inadvertently raised their children in a religion that led them down the road to hell and all the while sincerely believing themselves doing the right thing? In other words: they actually Judas-goated their children to follow mom and dad down there. How do parents in hell cope with something like that on their conscience? For some families, the only thing they have to look forward to in the afterlife is a sad reunion in fire and despair; for example:


†. Luke 16:27-29 . . Then he said: I beg you therefore, father [Abraham] that you would send [Lazarus] to my father's house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.


That poor man had no way to contact his surviving kin and let them know his whereabouts; but his biggest fear was that he knew them all well enough to know that all five were coming down where he was-- there was nothing he could do to prevent it. Imagine that man's sorrow had those five been his children.


BTW: The man's five brothers have long since joined him.


Pop Clock Update: 25 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 1,504,375 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 February 18, 2015 9:10 AM EST


At some time during Jonah's three-day nautical adventure, he went to a place described as the roots of the mountains (Jonah 2:6). Well; the roots of the mountains aren't situated in the tummy of a fish; they're embedded in the earth. Jesus Christ said the same thing about his experience.


†. Mtt 12:40 . . For just as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.


When you think about it, Jesus Christ's corpse was never in the heart of the earth. It wasn't even in the earth's soil. It was on the surface of the earth in a rock tomb. So in order for Christ to be on the surface of the earth and in its heart at the same time, he and his body had to go their separate ways. Same with Jonah. In order for Jonah to be in a fish's tummy and down at the roots of the mountains at the same time, he and his body had to go their separate ways; which of course is not difficult for traditional Christians seeing as how they believe it's possible for a human to continue existing beyond the demise of their body.


Pop Clock Update: 28 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 1,684,900 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 February 21, 2015 9:04 AM EST


†. Luke 16:25 . . Abraham said to him: Son, remember


I should think that one of the negative aspects of hell is memory. How people down there retain their memories sans the brain cells they left behind with their corpse, I don't know; but they do, just as the rich man is able to experience thirst sans a flesh and blood tongue.


The older one gets, the more memories they accumulate, and many of those memories haunt us with terrible regret. However, the people in hell not only have to cope with their bad memories, but also the good ones too, and I should think it is remembering the good things they enjoyed in life that makes their situation only worse in the heat. They say it is better to have loved and lost, rather than not to have loved at all. I disagree. I suspect it is far better to not know what you're missing. Ignorance really would be bliss in the once-rich man's situation.


Just think: that poor man is still in anguish down there to this very day; something like 1,955 years since Luke penned his gospel. In the grand scheme of things, that man is only just getting started on eternity because 1,955 years is little more than a warm-up for the main event. To put that in perspective: 60 AD was something like 1,432 years before Columbus discovered America.


Pop Clock Update: 31 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 1,865,425 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 February 24, 2015 7:55 AM EST


†. Gen 6:5 . .And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.


It's freaky to contemplate that the Bible's God has a way to eavesdrop on one's mental processes on a level with which people are mostly unfamiliar.


†. Matt 15:18-19 . . For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts


So then, it's not how your mind works that defines you, no, it's how your heart works that defines you; and a man's heart is easily capable of hoodwinking his own consciousness.


†. Jer 17:9 . . The human heart is most deceitful and desperately wicked. Who really knows how bad it is?


There is a part of us that psychology labels the subconscious; which in Freud's opinion is a repository for socially unacceptable ideas, wishes or desires, traumatic memories, and painful emotions put out of mind by the mechanism of psychological repression. However, the contents do not necessarily have to be solely negative. In the psychoanalytic view, the subconscious is a force that can only be recognized by its effects-- in other words: your mind's thoughts can be construed not as replicas of your hearts thoughts; but rather, as symptoms of your heart's thoughts.


The key word in the above is: repression. God is able to de-suppress those repressed contents and submit them as evidence in the prosecution's case against the accused. That means He will be confronting people with things that they never before really knew about themselves; and that's why I sometimes say only a fool would take their chances with the Bible's God. They have no clue the extent of the psychological tsunami they're walking into.


Pop Clock Update: 34 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 2,045,950 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 February 27, 2015 7:59 AM EST


Fiction can be defined as stories about people and events that, though untrue; are plausible; viz: realistic.


Fantasy can be defined as stories about people and events that are not only untrue; but implausible; viz: unrealistic.


For example: a story about a boy like Pinocchio is unrealistic; while a story about a boy with autism is realistic. The difference between Pinocchio and a boy with autism is that the one is compatible with normal reality; while the other is far removed from normal reality.


I have yet to read even one of Jesus Christ's parables that could not possibly be a real-life story. They're all actually quite believable. Now; if he had told one that alleged the moon was made of green cheese; we would have good reason to believe that at least that one was fantasy; but none of them are like that. At best; Christ's parables might qualify as fiction; but never fantasy because none of them are so far removed from normal reality that there is no possible chance of it ever being true.


Luke 16:19-31 is commonly alleged to be a parable; which of course implies that the story is fiction; and some would even say fantasy. But the parable theory has a fatal flaw. Abraham is not a fictional character: he's a real-life man; held in very high esteem by at least three of the world's prominent religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. And he's also the friend of God (Isa 41:8). I simply cannot believe that Jesus Christ-- a man famous among normal Christians for his honesty and integrity --would say something untrue about a famous real-life man; especially about one of his Father's buddies.


And on top of that, the story quotes Abraham a number of times. Well; if the story is fiction, then Jesus Christ is on record testifying that Abraham said things that he didn't really say; which is a clear violation of the commandment that prohibits bearing false witness.


There is something else to consider.


The story of the rich man and Lazarus didn't originate with Jesus Christ. No, it originated with his Father. In other words: Jesus Christ was micro-managed.


†. John 3:34 . . He is sent by God. He speaks God's words


†. John 8:26 . . He that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of Him.


†. John 8:28 . . I do nothing on my own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught me.


†. John 12:49 . . I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.


†. John 14:24 . .The word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me.


So, by implying that Luke 16:19-31 is false, the parable theory insinuates that God is a person of marginal integrity who can't be trusted to tell the truth about people, not even about His own friends, which is ridiculous seeing as how Titus 1:2 and Heb 6:18 testify that God cannot lie.


Pop Clock Update: 37 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 2,226,475 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 March 2, 2015 9:05 AM EST


†. Luke 9:35 . . A voice came from the cloud, saying: This is my son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.


The chosen son referred to in that verse isn't Solomon; it's Jesus Christ. So then, it was the voice's command that the three apostles who accompanied the son listen to him rather than listen to anybody else.


Now, that's very important because Jesus Christ testified that people continue to exist after they die; while Solomon believed just the opposite.


Solomon spoke of death; but there's no textual evidence in the book of Ecclesiastes indicating that he had ever seen beyond death for himself to know what he was talking about. In contrast, there is an abundance of textual evidence indicating that Jesus Christ not only spoke of death, but he had seen beyond death for himself to know what he was talking about. (e.g. John 3:13, John 3:31-32, John 6:33, John 6:38, and 1John 1:1-3) So in my estimation, Christ's eye-witness reports carry far more weight than Solomon's opinions.


When people insist that we listen to Solomon instead of listening to Jesus Christ, they are insinuating that the voice in the cloud steered the apostles in the wrong direction. That's a terrible thing to insinuate seeing as how the speaker was God.


†. 2Pet 1:17-18 . . For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying: This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.


Can you just imagine how insulted Jesus Christ's Father must feel when people choose Solomon over His son; especially when it's a matter of record that God wasn't well pleased with Solomon?


You know, if I was going to interpret somebody's teachings about the afterlife as figurative language; it wouldn't be Jesus Christ's teachings; no, it would be somebody's else's in order to avoid insulting Christ's Father. Better to err on the safe side.


Pop Clock Update: 40 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 2,407,000 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 March 5, 2015 7:35 PM EST


Common Objection: The Christian hell doesn't make sense that a loving God would torment people in a fiery prison forever and ever.


Response: Your "sense" is produced by a 3-pound lump of flabby organic tissue that can alter your personality with little more than an aneurism or a blow to the head. Just how sensible can a flabby organic sense really be compared to the sense of a divine being with enough intelligence to invent, design, and manufacture a fully functioning cosmos with all of its forms of life, matter, and energy? Your flabby organic sense isn't even a dunce in comparison: it's sub dunce; if even that.


Pop Clock Update: 43 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 2,587,525 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 March 8, 2015 11:45 AM EDT


Human life is fragile; so much so that even something as thin as the air can snuff it out.


†. Isa 40:6-7 . . All flesh is grass, and all its grace is like the blossom of the field. The grass shall dry out, the blossom shall wilt, for a wind from the Lord has blown upon it; behold the people is grass.


According to a report released on March 25, 2014 by the World Health Organization; air pollution kills, on average, seven million people per annum; and is linked to one in eight deaths (12.5%) world-wide. Think of it. That percentage represents 902,997,326 deaths linked to air pollution per annum out of a currently estimated 7,223,978,608+ people.


An estimated 4.3 million people died in 2012 as a result of indoor air pollution, mostly from cooking inside with coal or wood stoves in developing countries, according to a report by the public health agency of the United Nations.


Air pollution is so lethal because it exacerbates other conditions like cardio vascular diseases, cancer, and respiratory illnesses. Were people with those conditions permitted to breathe clean air free of hazardous chemicals and toxic particulates, they would live longer.


Pop Clock Update: 46 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 2,768,050 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 March 16, 2015 8:57 AM EDT


The wrath of God is interesting. For example:


†. Isa 13:9 . . Behold, the day of The Lord comes-- cruel; with both wrath and fierce anger


The Hebrew word for "wrath" in that statement is 'ebrah (eb-raw') which indicates an outburst of passion. In other words: the wrath of God won't be weeping big wet crocodile tears while it's slamming the dead at the Great White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15; no, they will be terminated with extreme prejudice; viz: the wrath of God will be furious against them. (cf. Isa 63:1-6, Rev 19:15)


Webster's defines "fierce" as a behavior exhibited by humans and animals that inspires terror because of the wild and menacing aspect of fury in attack. Ferocity is an aspect commonly seen among roaring, snarling lions savagely attacking prey. There's neither sportsmanship nor sympathy in ferocity; only sheer terror, brutality, and blood lust.


"cruel" is defined as: disposed to inflict pain or suffering; viz: devoid of humane feelings


†. Heb 10:27 . . A certain fearful expectation of . . . fiery indignation


"fiery indignation" is quite a bit more severe than ordinary indignation. Fiery speaks of someone who is seriously ticked off; and so angry that they're actually red in the face.


There are people out there in cyberspace la-la land who have been so conditioned by greeting cards, religious art, Broadway plays, Christmas carols, and Hollywood movies and nativity scenes that they have no concept of the magnitude of the lethal tsunami of rage and violence coming their way to get them.


An interesting aspect of the wrath of God is the person appointed to administer it-- none other than the sweet little baby away in a manger.


†. John 5:22-23 . .The Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father.


†. Acts 17:31 . . For God has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.


†. Rev 19:15 . . He shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


Pop Clock Update: 54 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 3,249,450 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 March 19, 2015 9:29 AM EDT


Creeping up the blind side, shinning up the wall,
stealing through the dark of the night.
Climbing through a window, stepping to the floor
checking to the left and the right.
Picking up the pieces, putting them away;
something doesn't feel quite right.


Help me someone, let me out of here.
Then out of the dark was suddenly heard:
Welcome to the Home by the Sea


Coming out the woodwork, through the open door,
pushing from above and below.
Shadows with no substance, in the shape of men;
round and down and sideways they go.
Adrift without direction, eyes that hold despair
then as one they sigh and they moan:


Help us someone, let us out of here.
Living here so long undisturbed,
dreaming of the time we were free
so many years ago
before the time when we first heard:
Welcome to the Home by the Sea


Sit down . . Sit down
As we relive our lives in what we tell you


Images of sorrow, pictures of delight
things that go to make up a life.
Endless days of summer, longer nights of gloom
waiting for the morning light.
Scenes of unimportance, photos in a frame
things that go to make up a life.


Sit down . . Sit down
Cause you won't get away,
no with us you will stay
for the rest of your days.
So sit down as we relive our lives in what we tell you.
Let us relive our lives in what we tell you.


Home By The Sea
Genesis, 1983
Phil Collins, Tony Banks, Mike Rutherford


The lyrics of that song are so sad because it depicts how the only thing people have to do down in the netherworld to help pass the time is tell each other about their previous lives. There is, of course, nothing to tell about their lives in hades since the colloquialism "get a life" is a non sequitur in that place. Nobody has a life down there; nor any hope of getting one.


†. Ecc 9:10 . . Whatever your hand finds to do, verily, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in sheol where you are going.


Pop Clock Update: 57 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 3,429,975 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 March 22, 2015 12:23 PM EDT


Below is a very disturbing passage.


†. 2Ths 2:11-12 . . And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


In other words; there's coming a time when God's patience will reach its reasonable limits, and He will purposely, willfully, and deliberately make sure that a certain category of people have no chance whatsoever to be spared the wrath of God.


Back when Noah was preparing the ark, no doubt his neighbors all mocked and poked fun at him like one of those deranged souls that go around with a sandwich board that reads: Repent; The End Is Near! But when the rain started, I bet those very same neighbors panicked and tried to get Noah to open up and let them in. But even had Noah wanted to; he couldn't. The hatch of the ark was sealed from the outside: and God was the only one on earth who could open it-- He chose not to.


†. Rev 1:18 . . I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.


†. Rev 3:7 . .These are the words of him who is holy and true: who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.


Pop Clock Update: 60 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 3,610,500 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 March 25, 2015 9:59 AM EDT


The koiné Greek word for "hell" in Rev 20:13-14 is haides (hah'-dace) which doesn't eo ipso indicate a place of fiery suffering. It's primary meaning is the netherworld, where, at one time, every deceased person went regardless of their age and regardless of their goodness or their badness. Even Christ went there (Psalm 16:10 & Acts 2:23-32) and he was a good person.


According to Luke 16:19-31, haides is (or was) divided into two sections: one for good people and one for bad people. The section designated for good people was (or is) quite pleasant. (Luke 23:43).


The reason haides is slated for demolition is simply because there will be no need for it in the future. Its bad people will be transferred to the lake of fire, and its good people to a new cosmos and a new earth.


Pop Clock Update: 63 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 3,791,025 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 March 28, 2015 9:55 AM EDT


A forgiven sinner is still a sinner and they'll go right on sinning same as before they were forgiven because human nature is intrinsically bad.


†. Gen 6:5 . .Yhvh saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.


†. Gen 8:21 . . Man's thoughts and actions are bent toward evil from childhood.


†. Jer 13:23 . . Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.


†. Eph 2:3 . .We were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


Pop Clock Update: 66 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 3,971,550 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 March 31, 2015 12:33 PM EDT


Christianity is a lethal religion. It quite literally, in some supernatural way that I don't quite understand, puts Christ's followers to death.


†. Rom 6:3 . . Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?


†. Rom 6:6 . . Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him


†. Gal 2:20 . . I am crucified with Christ


†. Col 3:3 . . For you died when Christ died


What's so good about being dead? Well; one of the good parts is: according to Rom 7:1-4 dead people are no longer under the jurisdiction of the Ten Commandments. In other words; I have a license to steal because there is no law in the whole Bible that penalizes a man for stealing while he's dead.


†. Rom 4:15 . . Law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.


†. Rom 5:13 . . Sin is not imputed when there is no law.


Pop Clock Update: 69 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 4,152,075 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 April 3, 2015 7:51 AM EDT


The first thing that most of us think of when we hear the word "hell" is everlasting torture; and that may be. But the reservoir of burning sulfur in the book of Revelation is actually not so much a rack as it is a gallows. The reservoir is primarily depicted as an instrument for carrying out death sentences rather than life sentences.


A death sentence-- although a sentence with lasting effects --isn't perpetual; it's momentary. In other words; criminals are subjected to death only long enough to end their lives. The primary reason we call the second death "eternal" is because it's permanent; viz: according to Dan 12:2 and John 5:28-29 there's only one resurrection allotted per person. Therefore nobody is coming back from the second death because they will have used up their one resurrection in order to face justice at the Great White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15.


Pop Clock Update: 72 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 4,332,600 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 April 6, 2015 1:25 PM EDT


Common Attitude:
I'm special; God understands me and He knows I'm only human. Although God probably may not let others off; I'm sure He will make an exception for me because I'm not like other people; I'm different.


Response: Unfortunately, the Bible's God can't do that. If He were to make exceptions, God would be neither equitable, nor honest-- and worse, it would go against His grain, compromise His integrity, sin against His conscience; and cause Him to lose the world's respect. No, God doesn't grade on a curve: everyone is treated equally in God's courtroom. In a system of divine absolutes; there is neither a curve nor an exception: nobody gets any favors, and nobody is special.


†. Deut 10:17 . . Yhvh shows no partiality and accepts no bribes.


†. Acts 10:34 . .Then Peter began to speak: I now realize how true it is that God is impartial.


†. Rom 2:5-11 . . For there is coming a day of judgment when God, the just judge of all the world, will judge all people according to what they have done. He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers. But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth; and practice evil deeds. There will be anguish and calamity for everyone who practices evil-- for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all practice good --for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.


Pop Clock Update: 75 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 4,513,125 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 April 9, 2015 7:21 AM EDT


Q: doesn't the Bible say that God's mercy endures forever as per Ps 100:5, Ps 106:1, Ps 107:1, and Ps 118:1, et al?


A: God's mercy never wears out; but His patience sometimes wears thin. Good examples of that are the people swept away by the hand of God in the Flood, and those burned to death by the hand of God in Sodom and Gomorrah; and the firstborn of man and beast slain by the hand of God on Passover night in Egypt.


Beware that you don't push God too far. For example:


†. Hos 4:17 . . Ephraim is joined to idols; let him alone.


In other words: God instructed the prophet Hosea not to bother preaching in Ephraim. They were too far gone


Pop Clock Update: 78 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 4,693,650 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 April 12, 2015 9:50 AM EDT


Note the grammatical tense of the "have" verb in Christ's statement. It's present tense rather than future, indicating that people who listen to his message, and believe in God, have eternal life right now-- no delay and no waiting period.


†. John 5:24 . . I assure you: those who listen to my message, and believe in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.


Since John 5:24 is an element of the gospel; then those who refuse to believe Christ's statement is true, are already destined for hell-- no delay, and no waiting period.


†. John 3:18 . .Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever disbelieves stands condemned already


FYI: Eternal life is a quality of life that's impervious to time, decay, death, and the aging process. Therefore; believers with eternal life, and thus already passed from death into life; are impervious to the wages of sin.


†. Rom 6:23 . .The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life.


Pop Clock Update: 81 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 4,693,650 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 April 15, 2015 11:22 AM EDT


†. Jonah 4:9-11 . . God said to Jonah: Do you have a right to be angry about the vine? I do; he said. I am angry enough to die. But the Lord said: You have been concerned about this vine, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight. But Nineveh has more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and many cattle as well. Should I not be concerned about that great city?


Had not the adults of Nineveh repented at Jonah's preaching, 120,000 small children would have died through no fault of their own. They would have been collateral damage had God lowered the boom on their parents. Just exactly how the hand of God would have destroyed the glory of Nineveh isn't stated in Jonah's prophecy; but in Nahum's prophecy it was by means of war and conquest.


Just exactly how God is able to engineer such things is a bit of a mystery; but does make one wonder where else this terrifying work of His goes on. Did God somehow have a hand in the American civil war, and the first and second world wars, and the Holocaust, and in Korea and Vietnam, and in the so-called Arab Spring, and in the pandemics, the ethnic cleansings, and the genocides of the last century, and in natural events like mighty earthquakes, tsunamis, and super storms? I really have to wonder sometimes because Jonah's God is still out there somewhere.


Pop Clock Update: 84 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 5,054,700 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 April 18, 2015 6:55 PM EDT


The ordeal that Christ endured on the cross was so brief that it looks like child's play in comparison to the horrors and the miseries of souls in Hell. His sufferings barely lasted six hours (cf. Mark 15:25, Matt 27:46-50) not even one whole day. People in hell go day, after day, after day, after day, after day, infinitum.


Q: But if Christ suffered only six hours, how can he possibly atone for people facing an eternity in Hell?


A: That's easy. It wasn't his torture that atoned for Man's sins; it was the loss of his life that did the trick. Christ didn't have to go to the flames himself in order to rescue people from flames; no, he only had to die in accordance with the law of sin and death.


†. Rom 6:23 . .The wages of sin is death


Individual human lives are of such low value that the most that anybody could hope to die for is just one(1) sin. In most cases; that leaves a pretty large balance to atone for. In contrast; the value of the life of God's son is such that his death can atone for an infinite number of everybody's sins.


†. 1Pet 1:18-20 . . For you know that God paid a ransom to save you from the empty life you inherited from your ancestors. And the ransom he paid was not mere gold or silver. He paid for you with the precious lifeblood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God.


Peter called the blood of Christ two things: a ransom and precious, meaning it's like rare jewels and metals; very pricey. Nobody else's life is nearly as valuable as Christ's life. Peter would never call regular human life rare and pricey. Ordinary human lives are wholesale: they're cheap as the grass (Isa 40:6-7, 1Pet 1:24) just a dime a dozen and quite useless for redemption purposes. Jesus' life is the only life God will accept for multiple sins: and the alternative is infinite punishment because no amount of limited punishment can ever equal the value of Christ's blood because not only is a life like Christ's rare, but his is the only one like it in existence. (cf. Rom 3:9-20, Heb 4:15, 1Pet 2:22, 1John 3:9)


Serial sinners are up a creek with no paddle because they have but two lives to forfeit for sin-- the life they have now, and the one they'll have later at their resurrection; but unfortunately, one of those lives is ear-marked for Adam's sin so they can't use it to atone for any of their own sins. And when they're resurrected to stand trial at the Great White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15; that'll be their last life because according to Dan 12:2 and John 5:28-29 there's only one resurrection allotted per person. And since the Bible's ratio is one life per one sin, then serial sinners will come up short and never have sufficient lives to atone for a lifetime's accumulation of sins.


Q: You say absolute justice for sins can't be satisfied with torture. Is Hell thus inadequate justice or overdone justice?


A: The dungeons of hell can be compared to a debtor's prison.


†. Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.


The reason that hell is a debtor's prison is because the only payment for one's sins that God will accept is death. Well; it's death for each sin. So if somebody has say, 200 sins to answer for, they'll only be able to pay for one because according to Dan 12:2 & John 5:28-29 there is but one resurrection allotted per person; not 200. In that sense; hell is insufficient justice.


If absolute justice could be satisfied with torture, then hell's inmates could look forward to a release date. But alas; such isn't to happen because the only "coinage" the Bible's God is in a position to accept in lieu of their own lives is His son's life.


†. 1Pet 1:18-20 . . For you know that God paid a ransom to save you from the empty life you inherited from your ancestors. And the ransom he paid was not mere gold or silver. He paid for you with the precious lifeblood of Christ, the sinless, spotless lamb of God.


In other words; Christ's crucifixion is the final option. Those who refuse to take advantage of it, will cross over to the other side in poverty; with literally no way in hell to pay their debts to God; thus they'll be stuck there.


Pop Clock Update: 87 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 5,235,225 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 April 21, 2015 10:31 PM EDT


Far from being immortal, the natural-born human soul is quite susceptible to termination.


†. Matt 10:28 . . Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


The koiné Greek word for "destroy" in that passage is apollumi (ap-ol'-loo-mee) whioch is a bit ambiguous. It can mean not only to annihilate, but also to kill; for example:


Matt 2:13
Matt 12:14
Matt 26:52
Matt 27:20
Mark 9:22
Lk 6:9
Lk 11:51
Lk 15:17
Lk 17:27
John 10:28
John 18:14
1Cor 10:9-10
2Pet 3:6
Jude 1:5


Are dead human souls sentient?


Well; I've been with dead human bodies so I know for myself that dead human bodies are not sentient. But I have never been with a dead human soul so I have no personal experience to draw upon in that connection.


However, human life consists of more than only a body and a soul. According to 1Ths 5:23, Heb 4:12, Heb 12:23, and 1Pet 3:18-20; human life also consists of spirit.


Apparently spirit cannot be destroyed by the fires of hell. I know that's true because the Devil is spirit, and according to Rev 20:10; he will be incarcerated in the reservoir of flaming sulfur, not to die, but so suffer-- forever. Quite a number of people are destined for that very same fate.


. Matt 25:41 . . He will also say to those on the left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.


The reverse logic of the jingle below is amusing:


"Guns don't kill people: People kill people."


It says though a gun is potentially lethal, it isn't a sentient being with a mind of its own. Nevertheless, the fact remains that guns are quite capable of killing people. In point of fact, according to a National Safety Council report; in 2006 there was a total of 30,896 deaths by firearm in the USA from all causes; both intentional and unintentional; both legal and illegal.


Here's another selection of reverse logic.


"Hell doesn't kill souls; God kills souls."


Is that jingle the whole truth and nothing but the truth? No; of course not. Though the Bible's hell is no more a sentient being with a mind of its own than a gun, it is nevertheless quite capable of killing souls.


The point is that a gun might terminate your body's life; but it cannot terminate your soul's life. However, hell is far more powerful than a gun. It will not only take your body's life, but it will take your soul's life too. To pull the trigger, so to speak; all God has to do is drop you in there.


Q: If somebody is already dead, then how can hell kill their body?


A: The current hell doesn't kill the human body because for now when people die, their bodies stay here rather than going there. But out ahead in the future; people in the current hell will be resurrected to face justice at the Great White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15. It is then when people's bodies will be terminated by yet another hell; and since there is but one resurrection allotted per person (Dan 12:2, John 5:28-29) then nobody is ever coming back from that hell.


Objection: There is a lake of fire depicted at Rev 20:11-15. Sorry; but it's impossible to liquefy flame


Rebuttal: According to Rev 20:10, the lake consists of not only fire; but also a non-metallic substance called brimstone; which Webster's defines as sulfur.


Sulfur melts at 232.36º F and boils at 832.28º F. If sulfur's temperature is maintained in that range; it easily suffices for an impoundment consisting of both flame and liquid.


Pop Clock Update: 90 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 5,415,750 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 April 24, 2015 8:32 PM EDT


It's estimated in post #1 that something like something like 60,175 new arrivals check into the fiery sector of the netherworld every 24 hours on the clock from all over the world; which if projected to the end of the 21st century from 04/24/15 would eventually total 1.86 billion people; and that's not factoring in all the people who have already lived and died during the past millennia ever since the sixth day of Genesis. That's a lot of people; and you have to wonder if the netherworld is sufficient to hold them. How will they all fit?


Well; according to 1Pet 3:18-20, the people in hades are interred there as spirits-- which is a non material substance that takes up no space in the material world.


A good case in point is the feral man of Mark 5:1-13 and Luke 8:26-33 possessed by a community of evil spirits who labeled themselves Legion. Webster's defines a legion as the principal unit of the Roman army comprising 3,000 to 6,000 foot soldiers with cavalry. The spirits that Christ exorcised from the man went out and possessed a herd of about 2,000 swine, so that's a pretty good example of how spirits take up no room in the physical world; nor do they crowd each other. All 3,000-6,000 of those spirits managed to fit inside the bodily cargo area of just that one man.


Just exactly how big demons are can't be known for certain. They could be no bigger than a moth; or even as large as the Jolly Green Giant-- but the point is, spirits take up no room in the physical world; so that the internal regions of planet Earth (if that's where the hades of the Bible is) have plenty of room for more and more occupants since people exist in the netherworld as spirits rather than physical mortals because their bodies stay here when they pass over to the other side.


So then, all those 60,165 people from around the globe who passed on to hades yesterday, didn't create a housing shortage when they arrived. No, they fit in quite easily; and there's still plenty of room left for more since spirits don't need space: they just need a place.


Pop Clock Update: 93 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 5,596,275 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 April 27, 2015 11:15 AM EDT


Q: Do you not know it is the kindness of God that leads men to repentance rather than threats of justice? (Rom 2:4)


A: If the Bible's God weren't so kind, then He wouldn't bother with giving His creatures advance notice of the horror in store for them in the afterlife.


†. Luke 12:4-5 . . And I say unto you my friends; Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear Him, which after He hath killed hath power to cast into Hell; yea, I say unto you: Fear Him.


Was Christ wrong to instill a fear of God within people's hearts? No, I think he was 110% justified. For example: when I was working as a professional welder for the US Army Corps of Engineers, we had weekly and monthly safety meetings wherein we were shown some grisly photographs of real life industrial accidents involving burns, chain saws, punctured eyes, explosions, falls, crane collapses, suffocation, crushing, and the like. Let me tell you something: those safety meetings got our attention, and really made a sharp distinction between the fool and the wise.


†. Prv 22:3 . . A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.


The kindness of God has given the world fair and adequate notice of an afterlife doom. Those who don't care about it one way or the other would be well advised to use what time they have remaining to begin mentally preparing themselves for the worst when they cross over to the other side.


Pop Clock Update: 96 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 5,776,800 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 April 30, 2015 7:55 AM EDT


Q: According to the Christians; it is a "must" to believe the Gospel in order to be spared the wrath of God. How is that fair for peoples of the world who were never afforded an opportunity to hear it?


A: There seems to be a number of Christians running around loose out there unaware of a gospel called the everlasting gospel; which reads like this:


†. Rev 14:6-7 . . And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, announcing with a loud voice: Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.


The everlasting gospel is very simple. Pretty much all it says is (1) be afraid, (2) there's a supreme being, (3) there's a reckoning looming on the horizon, and (4) the cosmos-- all of its forms of life, matter, and energy --is the product of intelligent design.


Giving "glory" to God simply indicates giving someone credit where credit is due; and "worship" basically just simply means admiration.


It's quite natural to admire celebrities, pro athletes, and super achievers; and to give them credit where credit is due; but not quite so natural to do the same for their creator, Anyway, point being: you either believe in intelligent design, or you don't. If you do believe, then you will admire both the originator's genius and His handiwork. If you don't believe; you won't admire either. Simple as that.


The everlasting gospel is interesting in that it isn't preached by humans; rather, it's preached by nature itself whose pulpit is everywhere, and speaks its message in every language known to man.


†. Ps 19:1-4 . .The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.


God allows no excuse for disbelieving the everlasting gospel.


†. Rom 1:18-21 . .The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness; because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.


It's humorous that when Europeans began invading the lands of North America's native peoples, they thought it prudent to convert them to Christianity. I really have to laugh at that because many of the peoples whom the Europeans labeled "wild men" were already believing the everlasting gospel centuries before the Europeans even dared to attempt crossing the Atlantic ocean.


Can belief in the everlasting gospel save wild men? Of course it can or why would the angel of Rev 14:6-7 bother to fly around the world heralding it? I'll tell you one thing: there is far more hope for a pre-Columbus Iroquois than there is for a space-age atheist familiar with the book of Genesis, and heard the gospel of Christ as per Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John and brushed it all off as musty old myths and fantasy underserving of their attention.


Pop Clock Update: 99 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 5,957,325 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 May 3, 2015 11:16 AM EDT


Heaven is sometimes depicted as the peak of a high mountain. All around the base of the mountain are roads leading to the peak. But according to Christ; only one road makes it up there; and all the other ones are dead ends, loops, and cul-de-sacs.


†. John 14:6 . . I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through me.


If traditional Christianity is the truth, then an awful lot of people are facing a very unpleasant future. For example, according to my sources, there are approximately:


50 thousand Scientologists
15 million Mormons
8.2 million Jehovah's Witnesses
7.31 million Baha'i
483.8 million Buddhists
454.6 million Chinese Folk Religionists
6.4 million Confucianists
258.5 million Ethnic Religionists
935.5 million Hindus
5.7 million Jains
1.5 billion Muslims
1.8 million Orthodox Jews
64.2 million New Religionists
2.8 million Shintoists
24.2 million Sikhs
13.8 million Spiritists
8.8 million Taoists
640 million Non Religious
138.8 million Atheists


The grand total of just those nineteen categories alone is 4,569,460,000


If those figures are in the ball park, and if traditional Christianity is the truth; then at the least 63% of the earth's current population is on a road to hell; and no doubt some of those are people we know: our friends, our relatives, and our associates.


Pop Clock Update: 102 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 6,137,850 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 May 6, 2015 10:15 AM EDT


Peace is actually one of the negative aspects of heaven. Things like discord, hatred, factions, cliques, mistrust, prejudice, bias, caste systems, double standards, partiality, favoritism, deceit, surmising, dishonesty, gossip, slander, sarcasm, cynicism, ridicule, envy, rivalry, resentment, avarice, greed, gossip, character assassination, kangaroo courts, complaining, tattling, meddling, confrontations, activism, quarrels, assertiveness, chafing, trickery, grudging, stonewalling, bitterness, silent treatments,


. . . revenge, stubbornness, cold shouldering, snobbery, egotism, dominance, demeaning comments, insults, rebellion, arrogance, attitudes, subterfuge, treachery, betrayal, suspicion, conceit, vanity, superiority complexes, depression, melancholy, panic attacks, bi-polar disorders, antisocial behaviors, sociopaths, crime, war, despotism, oppression, injustice, human rights abuses, character assassination, etc, etc, et al and ad nausea don't exist there. That could be a problem for people who thrive in a society where those things are the norm.


I once heard a minister tell the story of a busload of hell's people who were given a 30-day furlough for some R&R in heaven. They all came back the first night because heaven was such a bore. There were no wild parties, no clothing-optional beaches, no bars, no night clubs, no porn, no gambling, no pigging-out at buffets, no fights, no profanity, no ribaldry, no free sex, no vulgar late-night comedy, no exotic dancers, no X-rated movies, no junk food, no tobacco, no marijuana, no meth, no ecstasy, no LSD, no hunting for sport, no fishing for sport, and no vices like gambling and prostitution. And they couldn't see anything. The light in heaven is so bright that were normal people to visit heaven, they'd have to protect their eyes and the skin on their faces with leather jackets and electric arc welding hoods.


And the hellsters didn't particularly care for the isolation. None of the good folk in heaven wanted to associate with them: they were ostracized, they were segregated, and they were quarantined.


Heaven is a pleasant utopia. It's etiquette, its dress code, and its rules of conduct and civility; were way too strict for the hellsters. Especially suffocating is the mandatory self control everyone has to exercise in their choice of words to avoid hurting people's feelings.


In other words: heaven is a place prepared for a prepared people. Normal people would quite naturally find heaven disagreeable-- they just wouldn't fit in --especially with its lack of privacy, its 24-7 Big Brother oversight, and its strict codes of conduct. Take for example Wall Street barracudas. Do you really think they'd be happy in heaven? No. Or sweat shop operators? No. Or influence peddlers? No. Or cruel despots like Robert Mugabe and Kim Jong Un? No. Or adulterers and fornicators? No.


Or lobbyists? No. Or J-walking pedestrians? No. Or LGBT? No. Or greedy businessmen like Phil Knight, Donald Trump, and Bill Gates? Or unscrupulous social networking moguls like Mark Zuckerberg? No. Or bookies? Or activists? Or demonstrators and protestors? No. No. No. You see many of the things that hell's people do are unacceptable in heaven; and in point of fact, none of heaven's people even have an interest in many of the things that interest hell's people.


You know what else is lacking in heaven? Religious tolerance. There is only one religion in heaven. What's that tell you? Well; it tells me that the establishment clause of the US Constitution's first amendment doesn't fly in heaven. The government in heaven insists upon dictating everyone's religious preference.


In other words; Heaven's utopian society, coupled with its 24/7 Big Brother oversight, was just simply too much to ask in exchange for some time off. In their opinion: heaven sucks.


Pop Clock Update: 105 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 6,318,375 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 May 9, 2015 9:02 AM EDT


It's easy to assume that only really bad people are in hell. But according to Matt 7:23-27, John 3:3-8, John 3:14-20, John 3:36, and Rev 20:11-15, anybody can be there; both the good, the bad, and the not so bad-- bikers, bakers, lawyers, welders, actors and actresses, housewives, bankers, heavy equipment operators, loggers, convicts, celebrities, homeless bums, clergy, prostitutes, drug lords, postmen, Presidents, Kings, statesmen, astronauts,


. . . school teachers, scientists, nurses, doctors, chemists, machinists, carpenters, waiters, hotel managers, cops, judges, nuns, priests, Popes, deacons, salesmen, Miss Americas, news anchors, weathermen, and birdwatchers, et al.


People from every walk, every career, every religion, every culture, every language, every ethnic, every craft, and every status: they're all down there.


Because when you strip away their gender, their titles, their distinctions, their privileges, and their entitlements; and stand them before God naked; people are only flesh and blood creatures-- naked apes, just human beings; and human beings are intrinsically sinful beings.


†. Gen 8:21 . . Man's thoughts and actions are bent toward evil from childhood.


†. Ps 58:3 . . Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.


†. Eph 2:3 . .We were by nature objects of wrath.


Pop Clock Update: 108 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 6,318,375 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 May 12, 2015 11:13 AM EDT


Common Objection: Christ is compassionate and would never run an eternal torture mill for his lost sheep.


Reply: Yes, that's true. Christ's sheep are perfectly safe.


†. John 10:27-28 . . My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


However; only Christ's believing followers are accounted as his sheep.


†. Eph 1:13 . . And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit


The rest of the world has its neck in a noose.


†. John 3:18 . . He who believes in him is not condemned; but he who disbelieves is condemned already


Common Objection: Christ's sheep aren't, as you say "perfectly safe", no; not when they can pluck themselves out of his hand.


Reply: I should think that the words "any man" in John 10:28 would preclude that possibility. And anyway, an objection like the one above casts a vote of no-confidence in Christ's competence as a shepherd; and would indeed downgrade him from the status of a good shepherd to that of an ordinary shepherd and/or a pretty good shepherd, but not really a wholly good shepherd; one that the owner of the sheep can fully count on to keep safe and sound.


†. John 17:6 . . I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me.


If there is one thing that all sheep need from a shepherd it's protection from their own stupidity. If Christ cannot protect his sheep from the destructive weaknesses of their own human nature, then he doesn't deserve to be put in charge of the sheep that his Father entrusted to his care. He needs to be fired and replaced by someone just a tad more dependable.


But in order for Christ's sheep to extract themselves from his care; they would first have to be strong enough to overpower their shepherd, and afterwards strong enough to overpower God; which is not likely to happen.


†. John 10:28-30 . . No one shall snatch them out of my hand-- my Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.


Pop Clock Update: 111 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 6,679,425 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 May 15, 2015 12:15 PM EDT


Q: Isn't Judaism as useful as Christianity for sinners seeking God's forgiveness and atonement for sin? Isn't that the whole purpose of Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement?


A: Pinning one's hopes on the Day Of Atonement is futile. For one thing: there's no one to perform the ritual seeing as how there is neither a Temple nor a fully functioning Levitical priesthood in Jerusalem at this time. In point of fact, neither of those two essential elements of the Day of Atonement have been in Jerusalem since 70 AD.


There is a special goat involved in Yom Kippur commonly called a "scapegoat" which Webster's defines as a person who is unfairly blamed for something that others have done; in other words: a fall guy. But that does not accurately define Yom Kippur's goat. It's actually an escaping goat; viz: a fugitive.


The people's sins are symbolically placed upon the goat; which is then allowed to take off instead of executed. That means that the people's sins go unpunished and are still out there somewhere hanging over their heads like a sword of Damocles.


Yom Kippur then, is not so much a day for absolving the people's sins; but rather, to remind the people that their sins have yet to be brought to justice; and God forgets nothing.


†. Ex 34:6-7 . . Yhvh, Yhvh God: compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in loving kindness and truth; who keeps loving kindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished


†. Nahum 1:3 . . Yhvh is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked


Looking at those two scriptures one cannot help but scratch their head and wonder how it's possible that God forgives the guilty, and yet at the same time does not acquit the guilty. Well; the answer to that is: forgiveness and acquittal are two very different things in the Old Testament.


In other words; though God forgives He does not forget; viz: the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God does not permit Him to clear the guilty; viz: forgiveness as per the covenant is merely a reprieve; which Webster's defines as: to delay the punishment of someone; such as a prisoner who is sentenced to death. Long story short: there's a reckoning coming for Yhvh's people when the covenant will finally get its pound of flesh as per Lev 26:14-39, Deut 27:15-26, and Deut 28:15-68.


Pop Clock Update: 114 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 6,859,950 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 May 18, 2015 9:01 AM EDT


I know of the Protestant pastor who was asked by Audie Murphy's widow Pamela to speak at her husband's funeral. Audie Murphy, as you may already know, was a 32nd degree Scottish Rite Mason and a Shriner; but he wasn't a Christian.


In amazement, the pastor asked Mrs. Murphy why she chose a Christian to speak at her husband's funeral. Though Audie himself wasn't a Christian, his widow was; and she explained that the Hollywood crowd would be there the day of his funeral, and having hob-nobbed with them during her husband's acting career, she was fully aware that many of them rarely listened to something on the afterlife related to Jesus' crucifixion. Well . . that day they did, and were very annoyed because they were expecting the usual sappy, feel-good platitudes to which pampered celebrities are accustomed.


†. Ecc 7:4 . . The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning; but the heart of fools is in the house of mirth.


Some may feel that hell isn't an appropriate topic at a funeral. But I think that, other than Xmas and Easter, you couldn't pick a better time to bring it up, especially since Jesus said that the majority of the human race is ending up there. (Matt 7:13-14, Matt 22:14)


†. Ecc 7:2 . . It is better to go to a house of mourning than to go to a house of gaiety, for death is the destiny of every man; the living should take this seriously.


As I watched some of the splendor and pomp of President Gerald Ford's funeral back in January of 2007, I couldn't help but wonder if he was in a position to really appreciate it; as I suspect people in hell would certainly no longer really care anymore whether they were given an unknown pauper's disposal in a City incinerator, or reverently placed in a grand tomb in the National Cemetery with world-wide television coverage.


Pop Clock Update: 117 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 7,040,475 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 May 21, 2015 12:02 PM EDT


†. Deut 27:26 . . Cursed be he who will not uphold the terms of this Teaching and observe them.


One thing that must be emphasized is that the curse is irrevocable; so it's very important to come to grips with it; and the sooner the better.


†. Matt 5:18 . . For assuredly, I say to you: till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle will by any means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.


In other words: whoever deserves that curse will get it.


Pop Clock Update: 120 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 7,221,000 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 May 24, 2015 10:58 AM EDT


Common Objection: The Old Testament's Yhvh abhors human sacrifices. Therefore, He couldn't possibly approve of the New Testament's cross; for example Jer 32:33-35 and Deut 12:31.


Response: Though Yhvh normally frowns upon sacrificing one's underage children-- e.g. Lev 18:21, Lev 20:2-5, Deut 12:31, Deut 18:10, cf. 2Kgs 16:3, 2Kgs 17:31, 2Kgs 23:10, 2Kgs 21:6, Ps 106:34, Ezk 20:31, Ezk 23:37, Jer 7:31, Jer 19:4, Jer 32:35 --to my knowledge He's never frowned upon sacrificing a consenting adult.


The primary reason adult human sacrifices are illegal under the terms and conditions of the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God is simply because they aren't stipulated; and it's illegal to amend the covenant to include them. (Deut 4:2, Deut 5:29-30)


But Christ wasn't sacrificed as an old covenant atonement; rather, the new.


†. 1Cor 11:25-26 . . He took the cup after supper, saying: This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.


The Old Testament predicted human sacrifice; with Yhvh's full approval no less.


†. Isa 53:6 . . Yhvh has laid on him the iniquity of us all.


†. Isa 53:10 . . It was Yhvh's will to crush him, and cause him to suffer. Yhvh makes his life a guilt offering


Pop Clock Update: 123 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 7,401,525 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 May 27, 2015 10:49 AM EDT


Common Objection: The Bible says that God has never actually desired sacrifices and offerings. For example:


"For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. But this is what I commanded them, saying: Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you." (Jer 7:22-23)


In sacrifice and offering you have not delighted, but you have given me an open ear. Burnt offering and sin offering you have not required. (Psalm 40:6)


For you do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it; you do not delight in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and a contrite heart-- these, O God, you will not despise. (Ps 51:16-17)


For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. (Hos 6:6)


Response: The objection's interpretation of those passage effectively invalidates the entire God-given book of Leviticus; and also makes Christ look pretty stupid because it was his belief that not one jot nor one tittle of Israel's covenanted law would pass away until all is fulfilled. (Matt 5:17-19)


The point is: God prefers that men not sin; but rather conduct themselves in a manner that needs no atonement. In other words: atonements are a contingency rather than the ideal.


As for Hos 6:6, the mercy that God desires is not His extended to you, but yours extended to your fellow man; viz: rituals are unacceptable substitutes for things like kindness, charity, lenience, sympathy, courtesy and/or compassion.


Ps 51:16-17 requires an explanation because it's a special case. David penned it as a result of his tryst with Bathsheba and his engineering of the death of her husband Uriah. God allows no atonements for those two sins: both are unforgivable death offenses under the terms and conditions of the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God..


†. Ex 21:13-14 . . If a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, you shall take him away from my very altar and put him to death.


†. Num 35:31 . . Do not accept a ransom for the life of a murderer, who deserves to die. He must surely be put to death.


†. Lev 20:10 . . If a man commits adultery with another man's wife-- with the wife of his neighbor --both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.


†. Deut 22:22 . . If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die-- both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman --so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.


In other words: If the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God stipulated sacrifices for premeditated murder and adultery; David would have offered them.


Pop Clock Update: 126 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 7,582,050 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 May 30, 2015 4:02 PM EDT


Q: Can you cite an Old Testament example where God approved sacrificing a consenting adult?


A: Abraham lived a pretty good number of years before Israel's covenanted law was instituted. Therefore, he wasn't obligated to comply with it because biblical law doesn't have ex post facto jurisdiction; viz: it isn't retroactive. (Rom 4:15, Rom 5:13, and Gal 3:17)


So then, Abraham was in a position to offer a human sacrifice without incurring guilt; which he did.


†. Gen 22:1-2 . . Now it came about after these things, that God tested Abraham, and said to him: Abraham! And he said: Here I am. And He said: Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah; and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you.


Did Abraham slay Isaac? No, but did Abraham offer Isaac? Yes.


†. Gen 22:9 . .Then they came to the place of which God had told him. And Abraham built an altar there and placed the wood in order; and he bound Isaac his son and laid him on the altar, upon the wood.


You see, once a gift dedicated to God is placed on an altar, it's a done deal-- whether the offering is dead or alive makes no difference. In point of fact, the letter to Hebrews credits Abraham with offering his son in obedience to God's command.


†. Heb 11:17 . . By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son


So then, the next question is: was Isaac a consenting adult?


Well; according to Gen 22:6-7, Isaac was old enough to shoulder a load of wood; so he wasn't a little boy like so many people like to think he was. Plus, he was mature enough to understand the particulars of a burnt offering.


†. Gen 22:8b . . And the two of them walked on together.


What do you suppose they talked about on their way up the hill? Well; it's not too difficult to figure out. I think it was right about then that Abraham and Isaac took time-out for a heart to heart. And I don't think it was pleasant. Abraham informed his son of their real purpose there that day and of what God required. Isaac must have been shocked and terrified. How could he not be?


It must have taken quite a bit of salesmanship to convince Isaac that taking his life was the right thing to do. He was much younger and could easily outrun his aging dad. So if this was going to work, it would require his son's whole-hearted consent because there was no one there to assist Abraham in the event that Isaac chickened out. Besides, Isaac had to agree or the whole affair would disintegrate into a ritual murder.


The servants were behind, guarding the burro. And God could not interfere because offerings are worship; and worship is supposed to be voluntary rather than at the point of a gun. So all in all, the success of this entire event hinged upon the free will of just two people that day: Abraham and Isaac; a father and his son.


If you were Abraham, how would you approach Isaac to convince him to let you slit his throat and incinerate his body to ashes?


Fortunately, Abraham was a man of God who walked with God. So his influence with Isaac was fully functional and effective. If there was one thing about his dad that Isaac knew was definitely not artificial, it was his relationship with Yhvh. If his dad said that God wanted Abraham's son for a burnt offering, then by thunder that is what God said. I believe Isaac was confident his dad would never lie about such a thing. He might lie about other things, but not about that one especially since Isaac was a son whom Abraham dearly loved.


Isaac is quite the hero among instructed Jews. To this day; a prayer included in the additional service for Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish new year, culminates with these words: "Remember today the Binding Of Isaac with mercy to his descendants."


Ancient rabbis attested that the final resurrection of the dead would take place "through the merits of Isaac, who offered himself upon the altar." (Pesikta deRav Kahana, 32)


In other words: the closing prayer of Rosh Hashanah, and Pesikta deRav Kahana, 32 assume that Isaac was not only offered; but also consenting; which indeed he was; no doubt about it.


Q: But God stopped Abraham from cutting his son with the knife. Doesn't that prove God abhors human sacrifice?


A: See above in regards to the status of offerings placed upon an altar. In other words: Isaac didn't have to be slain in order to qualify as a valid sacrifice, he only had to be offered.


Pop Clock Update: 129 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 7,762,575 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 June 2, 2015 9:30 AM EDT


†. Ex 20:5 . . I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me.


Q: How is that fair? holding children responsible for what their parents do?


A: Ex 20:5-- along with Ex 34:7, Num 14:18, and Deut 5:9 --is often construed to mean that children are held responsible for their parents' sins; but that isn't it. What we're looking at here is collateral damage. It is apparently God's prerogative to get back at people by going after their posterity and/or the people they govern.


There's a horrific example of collateral damage located at Num 16:25-34. Another is the Flood. No doubt quite a few underage children drowned in that event due to their parents' wickedness. The same happened to the children in Sodom and Gomorrah. Ham's punishment for humiliating Noah was a curse upon his son Canaan. And during Moses' face-off with Pharaoh, God moved against the man's firstborn son along with all those of his subjects. But the capper is the 70,000 Israeli citizens who went to their deaths through no fault of their own because their king breached Israel's covenanted law by ordering an illegal census.


There are times when God chooses to judge people by going after not only themselves; but also the things that pertain to them; including, but not limited to, their progeny. I don't quite understand the logic of that kind of justice; but then again: I don't try; I just go along with it; primarily because it's futile to find fault with God.


Q: Come on now. Does anybody really "hate" God?


A: As a rule; God doesn't measure one's love and/or hatred for Himself in accordance with their feelings, but in accordance to their loyalty and/or disloyalty. In other words: even if somebody doesn't particularly like God as a person; He can deal with that just so long as they do as He says and give Him the respect that His position deserves.


In the Army we called that Military Courtesy. In other words; I saluted officers, got out of their way, spoke to them in a respectful tone of voice, and did what they said not because they were especially likeable as persons, but because they were the ones in command. The same principle applies to Christ.


†. John 14:15 . . If you love me, you will comply with what I command.


†. John 14:21 . .Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me.


†. John 14:23-24 . . If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching . . He who does not love me will not obey my teaching.


†. John 15:14 . .You are my friends if you do as I wish.


FYI: There are a number of Christians at large who honestly believe that church attendance is an adequate substitute for compliance with God's wishes. Well; it's not.


†. 1Sam 15:22-23 . . Has Yhvh as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of Yhvh? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of divination, and insubordination is as iniquity and idolatry.


Pop Clock Update: 132 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 7,943,100 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 June 5, 2015 9:11 AM EDT


Q: Doesn't Acts 2:24-33 teach that Jesus went to hell at his death?


A: According to Acts 2:24-32 he actually went to haides (a.k.a. hades) which is an ambiguous koiné Greek word for the netherworld-- an afterlife sphere where everybody goes when they pass on; both the good and the bad and the young and the old. Although haides can imply fiery suffering in the afterlife (e.g. Luke 16:23) the specific koiné word for fiery suffering is geena (gheh'-en-nah) for example Matt 5:22, Matt 5:29-30, Matt 23:15, Matt 23:33, and Luke 12:5


The actual netherworld location to which Christ departed was a pleasant situation rather than an incinerator.


†. Luke 23:39-43 . . One of the criminals hanging beside him scoffed: So you're the Messiah, are you? Prove it by saving yourself-- and us, too, while you're at it! But the other criminal protested: Aren't you afraid of God? Not even when you're dying? We deserve to die for our evil deeds, but this man hasn't done anything wrong. Then he said: Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. And Jesus replied: I assure you; today you will be with me in paradise.


The koiné Greek word for "paradise" is paradeisos (par-ad'-i-sos) which means: a park; which Webster's defines as: 1) a tract of land that often includes lawns, woodland, and pasture attached to a country house and is used as a game preserve and for recreation, and/or 2) a piece of ground in or near a city or town kept for ornament and recreation, and/or 3) an area maintained in its natural state as a public property.


Pop Clock Update: 135 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 8,123,625 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 June 8, 2015 3:16 PM EDT


As if hell isn't bad enough, people are in it as their selves; viz: they are never going to be free from their own personalities-- their phobias, their hang-ups, their inner conflicts, their memories, their anger, their hostility, their rivalries, their prejudice, their bias, their angst, their gender issues, their resentments, their regrets, their disappointments, their bitterness, their animosity, their passions, and their appetites.


Hell is even more of a hell than you might think because, having missed out on the regeneration about which Christ spoke at John 3:3-8, people take who they are right along with them down there. Thus; suicide is not a good way to relieve depression. Depressed people and/or despondent people, take that low state of mind right along with them to the other side; and their sorrow will be even more intensified in fire when they realize that as bad as things were up here on the surface, their situation up here wasn't nearly as bad as their situation down below.


You can escape poor health via death, you can escape credit card debt, you can escape an abusive spouse, you can escape taxes, you can escape a physical handicap, you can escape pimples, you can escape a ruined reputation, you can escape a blighted life, you can escape a bully, you can escape despots and tyrants, you can escape a life of neither promise nor future, you can escape prison, you can escape grinding poverty, and you can escape the Mafioso; but nobody can escape themselves.


Pop Clock Update: 138 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 8,304,150 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 June 11, 2015 11:07 AM EDT


†. Heb 10:26-28 . . If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.


If you know the Bible, then you're aware that lies are sins. Yet you continue to lie; don't you? Every time you lie, you commit a deliberate sin because you know full well that lies are sins. You've probably been taught that sexual fantasies are sins. Yet you continue to have them don't you? Every time you indulge in a sexual fantasy, you commit a deliberate sin because you were taught that sexual fantasies are acts of mental immorality. If you know the Bible, then you know from Matt 12:36 that thoughtless remarks are sin, yet you continue to make thoughtless remarks. How about traffic laws? When you deliberately speed, fail to come to a complete stop at stop signs, run red lights, pass illegally, and/or J-walk; you are committing deliberate sins because you know from Rom 13:1-7, and 1Pet 2:13-15 it is a sin to break traffic laws; yet you continue to break those laws anyway.


Therefore, performance-oriented Christians who believe there is no acquittal of any kind available for deliberate sins; are going to hell. They have to go there because it is their belief that there is no acquittal for deliberate sinners. But I am willing to bet money that none of them who believe that way really and truly worry about going to hell. I would like to ask them: Where's your panic? Where's your terror? Where's your anxiety? No, they don't believe their own beliefs; because if they did, they would feel terror, anxiety, worry, and panic; because hell is something to be feared; and it is feared by everybody who truly believes in it.


†. Luke 12:4-5 . . Dear friends, don't be afraid of those who want to kill you. They can only kill the body; they cannot do any more to you. But I'll tell you whom to fear. Fear God, who has the power to kill people and then throw them into hell.


If the beliefs of performance-oriented Christians were true-- that there is no acquittal available for intentional sins under either the old or the new covenant --then let me ask them another question: just what advantage (if any) does your version of Christianity have over Judaism, and what advantage would the new covenant have over the old one if neither Christianity nor Judaism offered an acquittal for intentional sins? There would be no advantage whatsoever; and the Gospel wouldn't be good news, but rather, it would be old news-- in point of fact, Christianity would be so redundant as to not even be worth the bother.


If, as some interpret Heb 10:26-28, there is no acquittal of any kind available for deliberate sin, then David, one of the holiest men in the Bible, should have gone to hell because he committed adultery and premeditated murder, knowing full well that both of those acts are sins, and knowing full well that the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per Deut 29:9-15 mandates the death penalty for both offenses (Ex 21:12-14, Lev 20:10) and also provides no absolution whatsoever for scofflaws. (Num 15:30-31)


Performance-oriented Christians believe in a version of Christianity that nobody can possibly live up to, not even they, because there is not a day goes by that even performance-oriented Christians themselves commit at least one act, think at least one thought, or speak at least one word, that they know in advance is wrong, yet go ahead anyway. I suspect that a fair number of them are fully aware they have no hope of success; and have given up and resigned themselves to hell and eternal suffering because it's just too difficult to go to the other place.


Pop Clock Update: 141 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 8,484,675 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 June 14, 2015 12:09 PM EDT


Q:
What sane father would condemn His own children, the work of His creation, to eternal punishment simply because they don't agree with him?


A: While true that the God of Genesis manufactured everybody, that does not eo ipso make everybody His children; for example just because Eli Whitney is the father of the cotton gin, and Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak are the fathers of the Apple II computer doesn't make those machines their children.


In other words: the God of Genesis is everybody's creator, yes; but He is not everybody's parent. No; by default, everybody is merely an organic creature manufactured from dust and members of Adam's family rather than God's. It's necessary to undergo a special birth in order to get in God's family. All other claimants are frauds, and have no right whatsoever to say God is their real father.


†. John 1:12-13 . .To all who accepted him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- children not born of natural descent, nor of human decision, nor of a husband's passion, but born of God.


Bottom line is: God doesn't condemn His own children to eternal punishment; but He won't hesitate to condemn yours if they neglect to follow Christ's instructions.


†. John 3:6 . . Don't be surprised at my statement that you must be born again.


Q: Ever consider the fact that the Bible nowhere mentions that people go to heaven or hell at the moment of death?


A: I am unaware of that "fact" which in reality, is not a fact at all, but rather, simply a deficiency in someone's own personal knowledge of the Bible.


Paul was confident that at his departure, he would be with The Lord.


†. Php 1:23 . . I desire to depart and be with Christ


To "be with Christ" is to be in heaven because according to Acts 2:32-36 that is where the Bible's Jesus currently resides at his Father's right hand.


For believers such as myself, to be absent from the body; is to be present with The Lord.


†. 2Cor 5:6-8 . .Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with The Lord.


When the rich man and the beggar Lazarus died in Luke 16:19-31, the angels carried Lazarus to Abraham's section of the netherworld.


†. Luke 16:22 . .The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side.


It's obvious from the text that Abraham wasn't in the fiery section of the netherworld at the time. It could be argued he wasn't in heaven at the time either; but that would certainly not be true today. If Paul expected to be with The Lord at his passing; then I have no doubt Abraham and Lazarus are now with The Lord too.


Christ gave a fellow prisoner his word that they would both enter a paradise the very day of their crucifixions.


†. Luke 23:43 . . Jesus answered him; I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.


If Christ and his fellow prisoner went to a paradise the very day of their deaths, then can there be any doubt that the rich man went to the fiery section of the netherworld the very day of his own death, and Lazarus went to Abraham's section on the very day of his death?


Upon comparing texts, it becomes clear that nobody went to heaven prior to Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection. Old Testament saints went to comfortable accommodations in the netherworld where Abraham was at the time of the events narrated in Luke 16:19-31. And the damned went to you know where; and they are still there to this very day yearning for a damp swab to soothe their parched tongues.


Pop Clock Update: 144 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 8,665,200 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 June 17, 2015 12:50 PM EDT


Objection: The idea of a hell didn't originate in either the Jewish or Christian religion.


Response: So in that objector's judicious estimation: since the Bible wasn't the first to talk about a hell; then the Bible's hell is eo ipso a false concept because somebody else brought it up first?


(chuckle) Great logic! I therefore allege that the little dwarf planet Pluto didn't exist until it was discovered February 18, 1930 by Clyde W. Tombaugh. And also: when a tree falls in the forest, and there's nobody around to hear it, then the crash doesn't make any noise.


Pop Clock Update: 147 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 8,845,725 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 June 20, 2015 9:25 AM EDT


Q: Ever consider the fact that the Bible nowhere mentions that people go to heaven or hell at the moment of death?


A: I am unaware of that "fact" which in reality, is not a fact at all, but rather, simply a deficiency in someone's own personal knowledge of the Bible.


Paul was confident that at his departure, he would be with The Lord.


†. Php 1:23 . . I desire to depart and be with Christ


To "be with Christ" is to be in heaven because according to Acts 2:32-36 that is where the Bible's Jesus currently resides at his Father's right hand.


For believers such as myself, to be absent from the body; is to be present with The Lord.


†. 2Cor 5:6-8 . .Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with The Lord.


When the rich man and the beggar Lazarus died in Luke 16:19-31, the angels carried Lazarus to Abraham's section of the netherworld.


†. Luke 16:22 . .The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side.


It's obvious from the text that Abraham wasn't in the fiery section of the netherworld at the time. It could be argued he wasn't in heaven at the time either; but that would certainly not be true today. If Paul expected to be with The Lord at his passing; then I have no doubt Abraham and Lazarus are now with The Lord too.


Christ gave a fellow prisoner his word that they would both enter a paradise the very day of their crucifixions.


†. Luke 23:43 . . Jesus answered him; I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.


If Christ and his fellow prisoner went to a paradise the very day of their deaths, then can there be any doubt that the rich man went to the fiery section of the netherworld the very day of his own death, and Lazarus went to Abraham's section on the very day of his death?


Upon comparing texts, it becomes clear that nobody went to heaven prior to Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection. Old Testament saints went to comfortable accommodations in the netherworld where Abraham was at the time of the events narrated in Luke 16:19-31. And the damned went to you know where; and they are still there to this very day yearning for a damp swab to soothe their parched tongues.


Pop Clock Update: 150 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 9,026,250 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 June 23, 2015 11:35 AM EDT


Objection: The idea of a hell didn't originate in either the Jewish or Christian religion.


Response: So in that objector's judicious estimation: since the Bible wasn't the first to talk about a hell; then the Bible's hell is eo ipso a false concept because somebody else brought it up first?


(chuckle) Great logic! I therefore allege that the little dwarf planet Pluto didn't exist until it was discovered February 18, 1930 by Clyde W. Tombaugh. And also: when a tree falls in the forest, and there's nobody around to hear it, then the crash doesn't make any noise.


Pop Clock Update: 153 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 9,206,775 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 June 26, 2015 9:19 AM EDT


Q: Ever consider the fact that the Bible nowhere mentions that people go to heaven or hell at the moment of death?


A: I am unaware of that "fact" which in reality, is not a fact at all, but rather, simply a deficiency in someone's own personal knowledge of the Bible.


Paul was confident that at his departure, he would be with The Lord.


†. Php 1:23 . . I desire to depart and be with Christ


To "be with Christ" is to be in heaven because according to Acts 2:32-36 that is where the Bible's Jesus currently resides at his Father's right hand.


For believers such as myself, to be absent from the body; is to be present with The Lord.


†. 2Cor 5:6-8 . .Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with The Lord.


When the rich man and the beggar Lazarus died in Luke 16:19-31, the angels carried Lazarus to Abraham's section of the netherworld.


†. Luke 16:22 . .The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side.


It's obvious from the text that Abraham wasn't in the fiery section of the netherworld at the time. It could be argued he wasn't in heaven at the time either; but that would certainly not be true today. If Paul expected to be with The Lord at his passing; then I have no doubt Abraham and Lazarus are now with The Lord too.


Christ gave a fellow prisoner his word that they would both enter a paradise the very day of their crucifixions.


†. Luke 23:43 . . Jesus answered him; I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.


If Christ and his fellow prisoner went to a paradise the very day of their deaths, then can there be any doubt that the rich man went to the fiery section of the netherworld the very day of his own death, and Lazarus went to Abraham's section on the very day of his death?


Upon comparing texts, it becomes clear that nobody went to heaven prior to Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection. Old Testament saints went to comfortable accommodations in the netherworld where Abraham was at the time of the events narrated in Luke 16:19-31. And the damned went to you know where; and they are still there to this very day yearning for a damp swab to soothe their parched tongues.


Pop Clock Update: 156 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 9,387,300 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 June 29, 2015 10:06 AM EDT


Q: According to Luke 23:39-43, Jesus went to paradise on the day of his death. If that's true, then why did he tell Mary Magdalene at John 20:17 that he had not yet ascended to the Father?


A: The koiné Greek word for "paradise" is paradeisos (par-ad'-i-sos) which basically identifies parks.


There are several notable urban parks in America e.g. New York's Central Park, San Diego's Balboa park, and San Francisco's Golden Gate Park, et al.


There are also several notable national parks too e.g. Yosemite, Yellowstone, Big Bend, Channel Islands, Glacier, and Olympic, et al.


However, whether urban or national; all of America's parks are parks regardless of size, quality and/or location.


According to Matt 12:39-40 and Acts 2:24 32, the park that Christ went to wasn't the big daddy of all parks up in the sky; viz: the paradise of God (Rev 2:7). No, he went down instead of up; to a lesser park. I'm guessing it was the same one where Abraham and Lazarus were dwelling in the 16th chapter of Luke.


Pop Clock Update: 159 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 9,387,300 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 July 2, 2015 12:36 PM EDT


I was once challenged by an Atheist that if I believed so strongly in the existence of a hell; then what was I doing for people down there.


Well; I had to tell the Atheist that although it isn't God's wishes that people end up suffering in hell, it is His wishes that they suffer once they're there. So that even if it were in my power to do something to make their situation a bit more tolerable and/or a bit more comfortable-- which it isn't --I wouldn't dare attempt to circumvent God's wishes; and neither would Christ.


†. John 4:34 . . My food is to do the will of Him that sent me.


†. John 8:29 . . And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.


†. John 10:30 . . I and my Father are unified.


This means that Christ wouldn't have protested, nor interfered, in either Noah's Flood or the fiery destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah; even though a number of infants and underage children went to their deaths in both events.


Pop Clock Update: 162 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 9,748,350 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 July 5, 2015 10:42 AM EDT


†. Isa 14:12-17 . . For you said to yourself; I will ascend to heaven and set my throne above God's stars. I will preside on the mountain of the gods far away in the north. I will climb to the highest heavens and be like the Most High.


. . . But instead, you will be brought down to the place of the dead, down to its lowest depths. Everyone there will stare at you and ask; Can this be the one who shook the earth and the kingdoms of the world? Is this the one who destroyed the land and made it into a wilderness? Is this the king who demolished the world's greatest cities and had no mercy on his captives?


In context; that passage targets an ancient Babylonian king, but serves to illustrate an important point: hell is a level field. Look around you at the celebrities, the socialites, the news anchors, the politicians, the stock brokers, the Warren Buffets, the Donald Trumps, the empire builders, the financial giants, the television moguls, the movie-makers, the civic leaders, the entrepreneurs, the fashion leaders, the intellectuals, the best-sellers, the Rock and Roll Hall of Famers, the Olympic stars and professional athletes, the Lewis & Clarks, the Charles Lindberghs, the Nobel Prize winners, the shuttle astronauts, the Hillary Clintons, the Barak Obamas, the Steve Jobs, the Mark Zuckerbergs, the Regis Philbins, the Oprah Winfrys, Congress, Supreme Court justices, the winners of Oscar and Tony and Grammy awards. In the Bible's hell, those kinds of people are just one more skull in a perpetual waste stream of losers.


†. Luke 16:19-23 . .There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham in the distance, with Lazarus by his side.


Can you just imagine that rich man's chagrin to see that homeless bum, who at one time dumpster-dived his own garbage, now in comfort while he himself is in misery? Isn't it interesting that the bum's name is given, but the rich man's isn't. You know why? Because he's now a forgotten man who no longer matters.


†. Ps 73:2-17 . . I came so close to the edge! My feet were slipping, and I was almost gone. For I envied the proud when I saw them prosper despite their wickedness. They seem to live such a painless life; their bodies are so healthy and strong. They aren't troubled like other people or plagued with problems like everyone else. They wear conceit like a jeweled necklace, and their clothing is woven of cruelty.


. . .These fat cats have everything their hearts could ever wish for! They scoff and speak only evil; in their arrogance they seek to crush others. They boast against the very heavens, and their words strut throughout the earth . . Look at these arrogant people-- enjoying a life of ease while their riches multiply . .Then one day I went into your sanctuary, O God; and I understood their destiny.


†. Ps 37:10-11 . . For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more; indeed, you will look carefully for his place, but it shall be no more. But the meek shall inherit the earth, and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.


NOTE: People aren't eo ipso wicked because they're successful. It's success to the exclusion of God that's wicked. Compare Luke 12:15-21 where a successful man is depicted as totally focused on his enterprises while not giving a single thought to his association with God.


Pop Clock Update: 165 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 9,928,875 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 July 8, 2015 12:07 PM EDT


Of all the comments I've ever composed about hell over the years, this one is perhaps the most disturbing; so if there are underage children present, you might want to shoo them out of the room before continuing.


Lorena Bobbitt made news in 1993 by amputating her husband's manhood with a carving knife while he was asleep. She was later acquitted by reason of insanity. Lorena's conduct was by no means ground-breaking. Wikipedia lists a number of such cases involving women mutilating men.


Lorena's conduct was excusable under law because of her mental state; but there are perfectly rational, sane women out and about who would be overjoyed with ecstasy to mutilate a man; for example:


On August 01, 2009, four angry women-- Therese A. Ziemann, 47, Wendy L. Sewell, 44, Michelle M. Belliveau, 43, and Tracy M. Hood-Davis, 30 --were charged in Stockbridge Wisconsin for luring a married man to a motel room where they tied him up and blindfolded him, slapped him around for a while; then removed his knickers and used super glue to attach his private to his stomach in retaliation for two-timing them. I really have to wonder what in God's name is going on inside those women's heads.


According to the Beatitudes (Matt 5:3-11) heaven is a place of peace and kindness. Women whose imaginations are laced with wicked thoughts, having hearts infected with a brutal desire to injure men, simply can't go there. They would hate heaven anyway because they couldn't be themselves there and would never fit in. They would not only be prevented from assaulting men, but they wouldn't even be permitted the cruel enjoyment of chafing men with denigrating remarks and demeaning comments.


The lake of fire depicted in Rev 19:20, 20:11-15, and 21:8 is hot enough to ignite sulfur, so that if gorgeous girls like say Beyonce Knowles and Paris Hilton are among the damned, they will have to lose their faces and figures yet one more time via a horribly disfiguring mode of death akin to a foundry worker falling into a vat of molten iron. The lake of flaming sulfur will be a terrible heartbreak for the beautiful people.


In fire and ice, the first parts of the human body to be effected are the extremities: ears, nose, toes, fingers, and lips. And in the case of women, extremities would include their bosom. You twisted, man-hating women out there in cyberspace should be thinking about that. Your first few moments in fire will be the worst part. The first thing to go will be your hair, and then extremities. Your bosom is soft and vulnerable; and will not survive unscathed from total bodily immersion in molten sulfur; and guess which gender of the human race will be responsible for your death via third degree burns all over your entire body; head to foot? A male.


†. Acts 17:31 . . For God has set a day for judging the world with justice by the man He has appointed, and He proved this to everyone by raising him from the dead.


In the end, it will be the sweet little gentle, turn-the-other-cheek baby Jesus who casts malicious women into the lake and permanently ruins any chances they might have had for happiness in the future. For all eternity, condemned man-haters will grind their teeth with hot tears and white-knuckled fury that they ultimately lost out on everything because of one lone male's obsessive control over their lives; and I have no doubt whatsoever they will entertain years of happy-thoughts dreaming of mutilating Christ should they perchance ever manage to get their hands on him.


NOTE: There will no doubt be some bent noses over this post, and see it as denigrating to women (while conveniently ignoring that it's a double standard to think it's okay to denigrate men). Well, I have to ask, since when did women become a protected species? Women are not a protected species. There are just as many, if not more, women dehydrating in hades as men. You malicious women out there in cyberspace need to keep something in mind. When you meet up with Christ, he is not going to be impressed with the silkiness of your thighs nor the size of your bosoms; in point of fact; he will be quite determined to disfigure them.


†. Rom 2:9-11. .There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: For God does not show favoritism.


†. Rev 20:15 . . And whosoever's name was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Pop Clock Update: 168 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 10,109,400 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 July 11, 2015 11:34 AM EDT


Many years ago-- when I was a young single guy in my early twenties, living alone in a cheap rental --as I was listening to a radio preacher talk about hell, something in my mind took over; and I had the strangest sensation of falling off the earth into an abyss and nobody cared, nor did anybody miss me, nor did my disappearance cause any alarm nor make any difference.


The freeways remained busy with frustrated drivers and honking horns, people still got up to go to work, shoppers crowded the supermarkets and department stores, kids caught their buses to school, birds kept right on chirping, grass kept on growing, ocean waves went on rolling onto the beach, trains kept running, airlines kept flying, clouds moved across the sky; and all that.


My absence changed nothing nor disturbed anyone nor anything. The world kept right on turning, clocks went on ticking; and nature and man went right on with their business as usual without the slightest hiccup. At that moment I realized just how alone and how obscure people must feel when they exhale their final breath and cross over to the other side.


Back in March of 2015, Andrew Getty, an heir to J. Paul Getty's oil fortune, died at the age of 47. In life, Andrew had many friends. You know how many accompanied him on his journey across the river Styx? Not a one.


You gotta walk that lonesome valley,
You gotta walk it by yourself,
Nobody here can walk it for you,
You gotta walk it by yourself.
(Woody Guthrie)


Pop Clock Update: 171 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 10,289,925 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 July 14, 2015 1:16 PM EDT


When people waken at night within a burning home, and the hallways are obscured by smoke and fire: at that moment, all things-- bank accounts, cars, clothing, mementos, charge cards, pets, taxes, sex, careers, incomes, Obama care, immigration reform, who wins the California primary, Dancing With The Stars, who's at fault for Benghazi, the stars in their courses, or who's playing in the Super Bowl; whatever --pale in comparison to the importance of finding a way out before it's too late.


When you're facing imminent death; with the flames of hell already licking around your naked legs; it's at a time like that when you'd better hope to God that your spiritual leaders haven't steered you down the wrong road because there will be no time to seek a second opinion.


Pop Clock Update: 174 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 10,470,450 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 July 17, 2015 1:19 PM EDT


Q: Doesn't Psalm 139:8 say that God is in hell?


A: The Hebrew word sometimes thought of as hell in that psalm is sheol, which doesn't eo ipso indicate a place of fiery suffering. Technically it simply indicates the netherworld; viz: an afterlife situation where all the dead go-- the young and the old, the good and the bad. The New Testament equivalent is haides; which means essentially the very same thing.


According to Jonah 2:6, sheol is located at the roots of the mountains; which indicates that it's deep in the earth as opposed to the earth's surface.


According to Luke 16:19-31, Luke 23:43, and Acts 2:25-31, sheol is divided into two communities: one for good people and one for bad people. No doubt the psalmist was referring to the good community when he said: "Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me." The people over in the bad community are not on those kinds of friendly terms with God so you probably won't find Him over there checking in with people from time to time to see if they need anything.


I'd say that the "right hand" of God refers to providence; which of course is something that people in the bad community are deprived. A pretty good illustration of their situation is that of abandoned little motherless street urchins wistfully peering through the plate glass window of a nice restaurant watching people drink and dine upon tasty beverages and savory foods that they themselves can only dream of.


Pop Clock Update: 177 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 10,650,975 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 July 21, 2015 10:00 AM EDT


†. Gen 6:5 . .And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.


It's freaky to contemplate that the Bible's God has a way to eavesdrop on one's mental processes on a level with which we are mostly unfamiliar.


†. Matt 15:18-19 . . For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts


So then, it's not how your mind works that defines you, no, it's how your heart works that defines you; and a man's heart is easily capable of hoodwinking his own consciousness.


†. Jer 17:9 . . The human heart is most deceitful and desperately wicked. Who really knows how bad it is?


There is a part of us that psychology labels the subconscious; which in Freud's opinion is a repository for socially unacceptable ideas, wishes or desires, traumatic memories, and painful emotions put out of mind by the mechanism of psychological repression. However, the contents do not necessarily have to be solely negative. In the psychoanalytic view, the subconscious is a force that can only be recognized by its effects-- in other words: your mind's thoughts can be construed not as replicas of your hearts thoughts; but rather, as symptoms of your heart's thoughts.


The key word in the above is repression. God is able to de-suppress those repressed contents and submit them as evidence in the prosecution's case against the accused. That means He will be confronting people with things that they never before really knew about themselves; and that's why I sometimes say only a fool would take their chances with the Bible's God. They have no clue the extent of the psychological tsunami they're walking into.


Pop Clock Update: 170 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 10,228,050 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 07, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 July 26, 2015 8:10 AM EDT


Q: Since God created us the way we are; then He is ultimately responsible for our conduct; right?


A: Some years ago I went into a music store in San Diego and noticed that one of the store's glass display cases contained a large variety of rather curious bottles. So I asked the clerk what they were. He said they were bongs. You mean for smoking dope? I asked. He replied: Yes; that is their purpose. So I responded: But isn't dope illegal? He replied: Yes, dope is illegal, however we don't sell dope; we only sell the means to smoke it. You see; the responsibility for smoking dope was on the end-users of bongs rather than upon the sellers of bongs.


In a similar incident, I went into an electronics store to purchase a mobile CB radio and noticed an array of devices in the display case that I didn't recognize. The clerk told me they were linear amplifiers; which, he said, are devices for boosting a standard 5-watt CB's signal strength. I asked the clerk if that was legal. He said no, it isn't legal to boost the standard signal. However, he said, it isn't illegal to own equipment with the capability to do so. In other words; the law placed the responsibility for boosting CB signals on the end-user of linear amplifiers rather than the sellers of linear amplifiers.


What I'm getting at is: God created humanity with the capability to make bad choices. But at the same time, He created humanity with the capability to make good choices too. In the incident involving the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; Adam chose poorly. Does it make sense to blame God for Adam's stupidity? No. Adam knew the risk going in; but proceeded anyay.


But you see: so-called "product liability" is a convenient way of blaming others for our own failings. In other words: product liability's proponents insist that the availability of things like forbidden fruit, bongs, and linear amplifiers constitutes enablement. So these days instead of saying "The devil made me do it; therefore my conduct is his fault" now people say "I was provided the means to do it; therefore my conduct is the provider's fault."


Many of the products under sinks and out in garages are toxic; so manufacturers put warning labels on them. They do the same thing with electrical equipment, power tools, and mechanical devices so people can operate them safely and avoid injury. Now; placing those products for sale to the public constitutes enablement, but they're assuming end-users are intelligent enough to read warning labels and/or user's manuals. If users ignore warning labels and the cautions printed in manuals; it's their own fault for being stupid.


Pop Clock Update: 186 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 11,192,550 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 July 29, 2015 9:37 AM EDT


†.
Luke 12:15-20 . . A man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions. And he told them this parable:


. . .The ground of a certain rich man produced a good crop. He thought to himself: What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops. Then he said: This is what I'll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. And I'll say to myself; You have plenty of good things laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry.


. . . But God said to him: You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?


That is one of the futilities of success in this world. Everybody knows it, but moguls like Donald Trump and Warren Buffet never seem to take it to heart until they've got one foot in the grave.


I once heard a story about a very wealthy man who died. His surviving relatives were all called to the reading of the man's will while the media waited outside. When the reading was over, the media asked the man's kin how much he left. They replied: He left it all.


Yes, of course he left it all; even the clothing he wore to his own funeral. The paintings of Gustave Doré, illustrating portions of Dante's Inferno, depict lost souls 100% stark naked-- with nary a stitch --as they should be because no doubt they are.


What would you be willing to pay and/or trade in order to cheat death?


†. Matt 16:26-27 . . For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? What shall a man give in exchange for his soul?


That question essentially asks: Is it possible to either purchase, or barter, an exemption from death? The answer is NO as there are no exemptions available at this time: so rich men like Donald Trump and Warren Buffet have no advantage in that respect over illegal aliens sneaking accross the border into Arizona when it comes time to die.


†. Ecc 2:14-16 . .The wise man has eyes in his head, while the fool walks in the darkness; but I came to realize that the same fate overtakes them both.


. . .Then I thought in my heart: The fate of the fool will overtake me also. What then do I gain by being wise? For the wise man, like the fool, will not be long remembered; in days to come both will be forgotten. Like the fool, the wise man too must die


Pop Clock Update: 189 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 11,373,075 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 August 1, 2015 9:24 AM EDT


When God Is Ignored -- He Ignores Back


†. Prv 1:24-33 . . I called you so often, but you didn't come. I reached out to you, but you paid no attention. You ignored my advice and rejected the correction I offered. So I will laugh when you are in trouble! I will mock you when disaster overtakes you-- when calamity overcomes you like a storm, when you are engulfed by trouble, and when anguish and distress overwhelm you.


. . . I will not answer when they cry for help. Even though they anxiously search for me, they will not find me. For they hated knowledge and chose not to fear The Lord. They rejected my advice and paid no attention when I corrected them. That is why they must eat the bitter fruit of living their own way. They must experience the full terror of the path they have chosen. For they are simpletons who turn away from me-- to death. They are fools, and their own complacency will destroy them. But all who listen to me will live in peace and safety, unafraid of harm.


Case in point is Mr. Esau.


"Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears." (Heb 12:16-17)


The koiné Greek word for "repentance" is metanoia (met-an'-oy-ah) which essentially means to change one's mind; viz: to reconsider.


Esau was an okay guy, but he was secular to the bone. He "got religion" right quick when he saw his way of life costing him the blessing; but alas, the poor slob was a day late and a dollar short; so to speak.


Lesson to be learned: The time for people to believe in hell is not when they get there, but before they get there.


Pop Clock Update: 192 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 11,553,600 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 August 4, 2015 8:12 AM EDT


Many of Christ's parables are so life-like, and depict such a variety of human experiences, that I used to wonder how a young man who never went to school, and lived in the same small town all his life prior to going on the road as an itinerant preacher, could have such a volume of realistic short stories all prepared and ready to go.


Well, one day it hit me. Duh! Christ was a prophet: a holy man micro-managed by a higher power. He neither authored nor composed a single one of the parables: they were his master's handiwork thru and thru.


†. John 3:34 . . He speaks God's words, for God's Spirit is upon him without measure or limit.


†. John 8:26 . . He that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.


†. John 8:28 . . I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.


†. John 12:49 . . For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.


†. John 12:50 . . Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.


†. John 14:10 . .The words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.


I am fully persuaded by Titus 1:2 that Christ's Father always tells the truth. In other words; I sincerely believe Jesus' master drew His parables from the archive of records that He's been keeping on every soul who ever lived-- everything they've ever done and said in public, and everything they've ever done and said in private --for thousands of years beginning with the first man Adam right on down to the last man today. Christ's Father knows all, He sees all, He hears all; and He remembers all: even people's secret thoughts.


Can you think of even one of the Father's parables that could not, by any stretch of the imagination, be a true story? No; there's nothing out of the ordinary in His parables. They're all true to life-- farmers sowing seed, women losing money, sons leaving home, wineskins bursting, tares among the wheat, leavened bread; barren fig trees, the blind leading the blind; et al. They're all 110% believable. None of them come across as fables with no basis in reality; e.g. Aesop's.


So why did I make such an issue out of the origin of Christ's parables? Answer: because anti burning-in-hell people insist that the disturbing narrative at Luke 16:19-31 is a fable with no basis in reality whatsoever. But the Father's impeccable character is what makes that narrative all the more terrifying. Unless somebody can prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Christ's Father is a tale-spinner; I pretty much have to assume the narrative was drawn from real-life archives.


Another thing: there are three real-life persons named in Luke 16:19-31-- Abraham, Lazarus, and Moses. I just don't think Christ's Father would make up a whopper about those three real-life people and thereby give Jesus' audience the wrong impression about them. In point of fact, if Christ's Father were to do that; then nobody's reputation would be safe in His hands.


I highly recommend accepting Luke 16:19-31 as a true story rather than risk the shame of insinuating that Christ's Father is a dishonest person of questionable integrity who can't be trusted to tell the truth about people.


†. 1John 5:10 . . Anyone who disbelieves God has made Him out to be a liar


Pop Clock Update: 195 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 11,734,125 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 August 7, 2015 9:27 AM EDT


The wrath of God is interesting. For example:


†. Isa 13:9 . . Behold, the day of The Lord comes-- cruel; with both wrath and fierce anger


The Hebrew word for "wrath" in that statement is 'ebrah (eb-raw') which indicates an outburst of passion. In other words: the wrath of God won't be weeping big wet crocodile tears while it's slamming the dead at the Great White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15; no, they will be terminated with extreme prejudice; viz: their judgment will be administered with choler. (cf. Isa 63:1-6, Rev 19:15)


Webster's defines "fierce" as a behavior exhibited by humans and animals that inspires terror because of the wild and menacing aspect of fury in attack. Ferocity is an aspect commonly seen among roaring, snarling lions savagely attacking prey. There's neither sportsmanship nor sympathy in ferocity; only sheer terror, brutality, and blood lust.


"cruel" is defined as: disposed to inflict pain or suffering; viz: devoid of humane feelings


†. Heb 10:27 . . A certain fearful expectation of . . . fiery indignation


"fiery indignation" is quite a bit more severe than ordinary indignation. It speaks of someone who is seriously ticked off; and so angry that they're actually red in the face.


There are people out there in pews all around the world who have been so coddled by sappy versions of Christianity that they have no concept of the magnitude of the lethal tsunami of rage and violence coming their way to get them.


Another interesting aspect of the wrath of God is the person appointed to administer it-- none other than the sweet little, turn the other cheek, baby away in a manger.


†. John 5:22-23 . .The Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father.


†. Acts 17:31 . . For God has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.


†. Rev 19:15 . . He shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


You know all those horrors depicted in the book of Revelation? Jesus Christ has been designated to supervise every one of them.


†. Rev 1:1 . .The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants.


Pop Clock Update: 198 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 11,914,650 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 August 10, 2015 11:35 AM EDT


†. Acts 9:1-6 . . Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to The Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem


. . . As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him: Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? Who are you, sir? Saul asked. I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting; he replied. Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.


Saul was very fortunate. With that obtuse attitude of his, he would have been lost for sure had not Christ trespassed upon his privacy with a close encounter of a third kind.


The interesting thing about Saul was his spiritual condition. He wasn't an Atheist or a Communist or an Islamic Fundamentalist; yet he hated Christians just as passionately as if he were an Atheist or a Communist or an Islamic Fundamentalist. But if perchance you're one of those reading this, don't get your hopes up expecting maybe you too will be converted by a close encounter with Christ of a third kind. God had a special purpose in mind with Saul's conversion --there's no logical basis for assuming He has a similar purpose in mind for you.


Pop Clock Update: 201 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 12,095,175 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 August 13, 2015 9:55 AM EDT


According to Siddhartha Gautama, there is no personal "soul" that continues to exist beyond the demise of one's organic body; ergo: one's original self no longer exists after death.


Q: So then in Buddhist rebirth; what is reborn if not the person?


A: Buddhist rebirth is not a resurrection; but rather; a rearrangement of the karmic matter that was once a particular individual.


Simply put, karmic matter is like the pieces and parts that go into assembling a chariot; which when dismantled, the pieces and parts can be utilized to construct some other conveyance; with very possibly another gender too; which means that if Steve Jobs is back on earth as rearranged karma; then he/she just might be back as a sea urchin, or a termite, or a fruit bat rather than a human being. He could even be kelp spore in the Pacific ocean off the coast of San Diego, or even as E.coli 0157-H7 in the belly of a cow being fattened up with genetically engineered grain in one of Tyson's concentrated animal feeding operations, or as an Indonesian child destined to work for peanuts in one of Nike's offshore sweat shops making shoes and sports apparel selling for big bucks to Chinese consumers.


In addition: reincarnation doesn't usually stop with one event unless a Buddhist manages to achieve nirvana on the first try; but typically eventuates in the possibility of a Buddhist having to undergo several cycles of birth, misery, and death called samsara.


Unlike reincarnation's potentially numerous cycles of birth, misery, and death; Christianity allots but one resurrection per person (Dan 12:2, John 5:29, Rev 20:5-6). So then, those who undergo a second death in the reservoir of molten sulfur depicted at Rev 20:10-15 won't be coming back in another form because they will have used up their one allotted resurrection in order to face justice at the Great White Throne event.


Pop Clock Update: 204 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 12,275,700 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 August 16, 2015 1:13 PM EDT


It was important to the plan of salvation that humanity be created susceptible to sin and death because Christ was already assigned the task of giving his life for the sins of the world before there even was a world (1Pet 1:20, Rev 13:8). In other words: humanity's susceptibility to sin and death was essential, it was deliberate, and it was designed.


†. Gen 1:31 . . And God saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was very good.


The Hebrew word for "good" in that passage is extremely ambiguous, which Webster's defines as capable of being understood in two or more possible senses. Well; in the case of towb (tobe) there's a catalogue of senses to choose from. However; in context, towb simply means everything turned out exactly as God planned; including, but not limited to, humanity's susceptibility to sin and death. That is just a cold, hard fact of life so everybody might just as well bite the bullet, and get used to it.


Pop Clock Update: 207 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 12,456,225 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 August 19, 2015 8:38 AM EDT


†.
Rom 3:4 . .Though everyone else in the world is a liar, God is true. As the Scriptures say: He will be proved right in what He says, and He will win His case in court.


Quite a number of Atheists that I encounter online are convinced that the Bible's God doesn't know what He's talking about. Well; the day is coming when they will do a face-to-face with their maker at which time both He and they will be given an opportunity to debate their differences. When it's over, God will have defended Himself to such a degree that even His opponents will have to admit He was right all along.


That's interesting. It tells me that God doesn't insist He's right just because He says so. It tells me His ways are logical, reasonable, and defensible. I would really like to be a spectator at some of those face-offs. Should be very entertaining.


†. Jude 14-16 . . See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone; and to convict all the ungodly of all the impious acts they have done in an impious way, and of all the harsh words that impious sinners have spoken against Him.


Pop Clock Update: 210 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 12,636,750 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 August 22, 2015 9:24 AM EDT


The tragedy of the second death is that there are no more lives after that because according to Dan 12:2, John 5:29, and Rev 20:5-6 there is but one resurrection allotted per person; which is very serious because according to Rom 6:23, the wages of sin is death.


Let's say that somebody standing trial at the Great White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15 told something like 120 lies in their lifetime. Well; according to the law of sin and death (Rom 6:23) they face capital punishment for each count of lying, for a grand total of 120 executions. Well; they won't have 120 lives with which to be executed 120 times; they'll have just the one; leaving a balance of 119 lies for which the wages of sin is death. So the reason nobody is coming back from the reservoir of flaming sulfur is just simple arithmetic; viz: the reservoir can be thought of as a sort of debtor's prison.


†. Matt 5:25-26 . . Come to terms with your adversary quickly, while you are in the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.


Well, the wages of sin isn't pennies, or gold, or silver, or fiat currency, or time behind bars: no; it's capital punishment, so that once people are executed in the reservoir of flaming sulfur that's where they'll stay because they'll have no means at their disposal with which to pay their way out of there.


Pop Clock Update: 213 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 12,817,275 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 August 25, 2015 8:10 AM EDT


†. Rev 14:6-7 . . And I saw another angel flying through the sky, carrying the everlasting gospel to preach to the people who dwell on the earth-- to every nation, tribe, language, and people. Fear God! he shouted. Give glory to Him! For the time has come when He will sit as judge. Worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea, and all the springs of water!


It's easy to mistake the everlasting gospel for the gospel of Christ but neither Christ's name nor his cross are anywhere in the angel's message.


The everlasting gospel could also be called the everywhere gospel because it begins with the first chapter of Genesis; is mentioned again in Psalm 19:1-4, and again in Rom 1:18-21.


Most disbelievers can't accept intelligent design and/or the wrath of God; but until they do, there is little use in trying to sell them on the gospel of Christ.


The everlasting gospel is very elementary. Pretty much all it says is:


1• There's a supreme being.


2• He deserves respect.


3• There's a frightful reckoning looming on the horizon, and


4• The cosmos-- all of its forms of life, matter, and energy --is the product of intelligent design.


Giving "glory" to God simply indicates giving someone credit where credit is due; and "worship" basically just simply means admiration.


It's quite natural to admire celebrities, pro athletes, and super achievers-- to give them credit where credit is due --but not quite so natural to do the same for the cosmos' architect.


Anyway, point being: people either believe in intelligent design and the wrath of God or they don't. If they do believe, then they will admire the creator's genius and also dread meeting up with Him in a face-to-face. If they don't believe; then they will neither dread Him nor admire Him: simple as that.


Pop Clock Update: 216 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 12,997,800 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 August 28, 2015 8:10 AM EDT


Human life is fragile; so much so that even something as thin as the air can snuff it out.


†. Isa 40:6-7 . . All flesh is grass, and all its kindness is like the blossom of the field. The grass shall dry out, the blossom shall wilt, for a wind from the Lord has blown upon it; behold the people is grass.


According to a report released on March 25, 2014 by the World Health Organization; air pollution kills, on average, seven million people per annum; and is linked to one in eight deaths (12½%) world-wide. Think of it. That percentage represents 907,563,063 deaths linked to air pollution per annum out of a currently estimated 7,260,504,500 people.


An estimated 4.3 million people died in 2012 as a result of indoor air pollution, mostly from cooking inside with coal or wood stoves in developing countries, according to a report by the public health agency of the United Nations.


Air pollution is so lethal because it exacerbates other conditions like cardio vascular diseases, cancer, and respiratory illnesses. Were people with those conditions permitted to breathe clean air free of hazardous chemicals and toxic particulates, they would live longer.


Pop Clock Update: 219 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 13,178,325 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 August 31, 2015 10:42 AM EDT


†. Rev 21:8 . . But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.


The koiné Greek word for "brimstone" is theion (thi'-on) which means sulfur, which Webster's defines as a nonmetallic element that occurs either free or combined esp. in sulfides and sulfates, is a constituent of proteins, exists in several allotropic forms including yellow orthorhombic crystals, resembles oxygen chemically but is less active and more acidic, and is used esp. in the chemical and paper industries, in rubber vulcanization, and in medicine for treating skin diseases.


Whenever sulfur is mentioned as a tool of judgment in the Bible, it's always in combination with fire since sulfur doesn't exist in nature as a flaming substance like lava and/or magma. Sulfur is flammable, yes, but then so is an oak log and/or a lady's handkerchief.


One of the purposes for setting sulfur on fire is the fumes that it gives off are quite useful for fumigation. Personally I wouldn't want to fumigate my house with sulfur if perchance it might leave behind a rather unpleasant odor. In point of fact, sulfur is one of the ingredients found in skunk scent and we all know just how stubborn the odor of that stuff is.


I don't know exactly why God prefers using ignited sulfur in some applications (e.g. Sodom and Gomorrah; Luke 17:29) but one thing's for sure: if the conflagration doesn't get you, the fumes surely will without respiratory protection.


Perhaps the impoundment of fire and sulfur depicted at Rev 20:11-15 and Rev 21:8 is some sort of super-lethal weapon of mass destruction; viz: first the fumes terminate your life, and then the fire cooks your corpse. Pretty grisly thought.


However, though the remains of the lost will be cooked, they won't be cremated to oblivion. According to the Bible; the corpses will be preserved as perpetual nourishment for a curious species of fire-proof worm. And they'll also be on public display like the remains of those prehistoric animals in the museum of the La Brea Tar Pits in Los Angeles.


†. Isa 66:22-24 . . All humanity will come to worship me from week to week and from month to month. And as they go out, they will see the dead bodies of those who have rebelled against me. For the worms that devour them will never die, and the fire that burns them will never go out. All who pass by will view them with utter loathing.


†. Mark 9:47-48 . . If your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out. It is better to enter the kingdom of God half blind than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell; where the worm never dies and the fire never goes out.


Pop Clock Update: 212 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 12,754,980 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 07, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 September 3, 2015 9:27 AM EDT


Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer, a.k.a. the Milwaukee Cannibal (May 21, 1960 November 28, 1994) murdered upwards of 18 males. I won't go into the grisly details of those incidents other than to say that he cannibalized, lobotomized, dismembered, beheaded, eviscerated, and performed unspeakable acts of necrophilia with their remains.


His primary motivation? Well; none of those murders were done in a spirit of malice; nor were they kill-for-thrill murders either. His primary motivation was actually very practical. You see; Dahmer was a lonely gay man plagued with some serious abandonment issues. So in order to prevent his lovers from dumping him, he simply killed them so they couldn't. His attempts to lobotomize some of the males and turn them into love zombies resulted in their demise.


Now what really interests me the most about Dahmer is that it's reported he became a born-again Christian while in prison. If that report is true, then according to John 3:3-18 and John 5:24, Jeffry didn't go to hell. Well; I wouldn't be surprised if a number of conscientious church-goers, who had been model citizens all their entire lives; will be very resentful over Mr. Dahmer's unqualified acceptance into the heaven they worked so hard to obtain.


Pop Clock Update: 225 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 13,539,375 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 September 6, 2015 12:37 PM EDT


It's ironic that many of North America's Indian tribes, whom European missionaries sought to convert to Christianity, were already believing in the existence of a creator before the Europeans arrived. You know why? Well; that's very easy. North America's Natives were far more in tune with nature than the very Europeans who sought to convert them.


If you ask me; peoples like the Mohawk and the Seneca should have been sending missionaries over to Europe rather than the other way around. Europeans got their belief in a creator from a book; while America's indigenous peoples got their belief in a creator from the very source that the creator provided for all peoples the world over, both American and European.


†. Ps 19:1-4 . .The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.


God says there is no excuse for refusing to believe that nature proves the existence of a supreme being and that intelligent design is the truth.


†. Rom 1:18-20 . .The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-- his eternal power and divine nature --have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.


NOTE: Speaking of Native Americans. Who were the first slaves in this country? Blacks? No, Native Americans were the first slaves in this country. When the Spaniards began settling in California, they right away captured and made slaves of the indigenous peoples. Spaniards did the very same thing to the Pueblo people in New Mexico and Arizona.


And then little by little, the Christian hordes from Europe began taking land away from all Native Americans by dishonesty, by theft, by cruelty, by murder, and by force. The White Man's religion remains to this day one of the worst things that ever came to this country.


Pop Clock Update: 228 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 13,719,900 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 September 9, 2015 10:54 AM EDT


There are no people buried in cemeteries; only people's remains.


We call a corpse "remains" because it's no more sentient than a bikini-clad Barbie doll. Corpses look like human persons; and that's because at one time they were human persons; but that's over. Once the breath of life is gone out them, corpses become no more a human person than a stick of Old Spice deodorant.


When my father-in-law passed a while back, we all went to the hospital to view the body. Well; I was very impressed that the frozen figure the hospital staff brought up from the morgue on a portable slab wasn't my father-in law, rather it was wooden mannequin that resembled my father-in-law. He was gone; and the rigid, stone-cold statue lying in repose was what was left of him. Very disturbing.


Death is depicted in the Bible as a pit. But not a grave pit: it's a hole dug in the ground to trap wildlife. In other words: a hunting device from which an animal is helpless to escape.


In life my father-in-law was a war hero-- a pipeline engineer in Burma on Stilwell's' Road and flew The Hump into China. He was also a senior vice president with Safeco Title. But in death, my father-in-law was trapped and just as helpless to do anything about his circumstances as a sidewalk or a lump of coal.


Pop Clock Update: 231 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 13,900,425 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 September 12, 2015 9:47 AM EDT


†. Ecc 1:2-4 . . Meaningless! Futile! complains the Teacher. Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless. What does a man gain from all his labor at which he toils under the sun? Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever.


The earth is dumber than a spatula; yet easily outlives its human potentate whose IQ is infinitely greater. Take for example the great granite monuments in Yosemite Valley. Tourists to the valley come, and tourists to the valley go; and one day old age catches up with those tourists and they're gone; yet Yosemite's great stones abide decade after decade; century after century. Most children born this day will be dead in 100 years; and those stones won't even notice. Though a child born today may be intelligent enough to eventually understand orbital mechanics and string theory; the stones-- stupid, mute, and uneducated --will easily outlast it.


†. Ecc 2:15-16 . . I thought in my heart,: The fate of the fool will overtake me also. What then do I gain by being intelligent? I said in my heart: This is meaningless For the intelligent man, like the fool, will not be long remembered-- in days to come both will be forgotten. Like the fool, the intelligent man too must die.


Pop Clock Update: 234 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 14,080,950 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 September 15, 2015 10:46 AM EDT


The only hell known to be fueled by sulfur is the fiery impoundment described by John at Rev 20:10-15. The chemistry of the material fueling the hell depicted at Luke 16:19-31 isn't stated. However, it appears that the rich man isn't afloat in an impoundment; but rather, warehoused in something more like a large furnace where he's at liberty to walk around a bit and chat with his neighbors.


Alighieri Dante's Divine Comedy depicts a variety of punishments. For one thing: his hell isn't strictly fire. In point of fact, the very lowest tier is ice. On a higher tier; people are inserted head down in socket holes bored in solid rock. On another tier, people are being dismembered over and over again by demons with big swords. On yet another, people are submerged in boiling pitch. On another, a guy is pinned down on a path where people repeatedly walk on him. On another tier, people are continually pelted by embers. And of course everybody on every tier is stark naked and afforded no protection for their skin whatsoever.


It wasn't Dante's intention to provide an accurate picture of hell; but to illustrate the wish of justice to administer punishment that fits the crime. It's a common complaint that hell isn't fair. Everyone pays the same no matter what they've done. Well; I'm not so sure; because that wouldn't be justice; but would in fact be injustice. I think it's safe to assume that some people will pay more than others in ways we cannot even imagine.


Pop Clock Update: 237 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 14,261,475 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag sonnymoon42 September 16, 2015 3:42 PM EDT

I dunno, I think my version of Hell would be having nothing to read except all these damned "Hell's Population Clock" posts Weber's placed in every possible forum on Beliefnet.

Flag weberhome02 September 18, 2015 12:23 PM EDT

Sep 16, 2015 -- 3:42PM, sonnymoon42 wrote:

I think my version of Hell would be having nothing to read except all these damned "Hell's Population Clock" posts Weber's placed in every possible forum on Beliefnet.


Even worse would be having to read Henry Wadsworth Longfellow's translation of The Divine Comedy.


A.S. Kline's version is much better, but even so; without Cliffs Notes, I would have given up on Dante.


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Flag weberhome02 September 18, 2015 12:25 PM EDT


†. Gen 2:8-9 . .The Lord God planted a garden in Eden, and placed there the man whom He had formed. And from the ground the Lord God caused to grow every tree that was pleasing to the sight and good for food, with the tree of life in the middle of the garden,


The tree of life doesn't give life; but rather, according to Gen 3:22 has something in it that sustains life: indefinitely. Exactly how the chemistry of any plant could be so rich in nourishment as to stop the human body from getting old and falling apart is currently unknown. A very active field of modern scientific research in our own time is gerontology-- the study of the phenomena of the aging process. As yet, gerontologists have no significant understanding of the aging process, and therefore no clue as to what treatments, or nutrients, might be employed to stop it.


The tree shows up again in the book of Revelation at 22:2. In the future, the tree won't be utilized to keep the resurrected righteous forever young because according to 1Cor 15:50-54 their bodies will be impervious to death and the aging process. However; though their bodies will be impervious to death and the aging process; to my knowledge they won't be impervious to injury; hence, the tree's leaves will be utilized for First Aid treatments. For really serious injuries-- e.g. broken teeth, dismemberment, disemboweling, crushing, loss of an eye, and the like --Christ has already proven himself up to the task of fixing things like that so people won't have to worry about going through eternity handicapped and/or disfigured.


Pop Clock Update: 240 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 14,442,000 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 September 21, 2015 9:41 AM EDT


†. Eph 1:15-18 . . I do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers; that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened


The eyes of one's heart are different than the eyes of one's intelligence. What we're looking at in that passage isn't mentality; but rather: intuition; which Webster's defines as the power or faculty of attaining to direct knowledge or cognition without evident rational thought and inference. I'm not talking about Gnosticism here. I'm talking about knowing what the Bible means without it having to be explicit.


For example: in the 45th chapter of Genesis; Joseph broke down sobbing during the reunion with his wicked brothers. Genesis makes no attempt to explain Joseph's feelings because you're supposed to know things like that without someone having to try and explain them to you. That's intuition; viz: people discussing Christianity on internet forums sans the special intuition spoken of in Eph 1:15-18, are like blind men in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there; resulting in perpetual debates and endless bull sessions about heaven and hell that never get to the bottom of anything.


The kind of intuition that Eph 1:15-18 is talking about is a very special kind of intuition that comes from God only; and it's not easy to obtain; for example:


†. Deut 29:2-4 . . Moses summoned all the Israelites and said to them: Your eyes have seen all that The Lord did in Egypt to Pharaoh, to all his officials and to all his land. With your own eyes you saw those great trials, those miraculous signs and great wonders. But to this day The Lord has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.


Pop Clock Update: 243 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 14,622,525 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 September 24, 2015 9:31 AM EDT


†. Gen 2:16-17 . . And the Lord God commanded the man, saying: From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die.


That passage has always been an embarrassment for Bible thumpers because Adam didn't drop dead the instant he tasted the forbidden fruit. In point of fact, he continued to live outside the garden of Eden for another 800 years after the birth of his son Seth. (Gen 5:4)


So; is there a reasonable explanation for this apparent discrepancy?


Well; first off let me point out that in order for the threat to resonate in Adam's thinking; it had to be related to death as Adam understood death in his day, not as the Bible thumpers understand death in their day. In other words; Adam didn't expect to die spiritually. No, he expected to die normally; viz: physically; like as in pass away.


How can I be so sure that God meant normal death instead of spiritual death? Because according to Gen 3:19 that's how it worked out; and to make sure Adam stayed normally dead, God blocked his access to the tree of life. (Gen 3:22-24)


Anyway; the trick is: Adam wasn't told he would die the instant he tasted the fruit. God's exact words were "in the day"


Well; according to Gen 2:4, the Hebrew word for "day" is a bit ambiguous. It can easily indicate a period of time much, much longer than 24 hours' viz; the "day" of Adam's death began the moment he ate the fruit.


That was a milestone in human history. Up till Adam tasted the fruit, the only days on record were the six of creation, and the one when God ceased creating. Adam inaugurated a new day by tasting the fruit-- the day of death.


"Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men" (Rom 5:12)


Well; like Jack Palance's character Curly in the movie City Slickers said: "The day ain't over yet"


†. Ecc 7:2 . . It is better to go to a house of mourning than to go to a house of gaiety, for death is the destiny of every man; the living should take this seriously.


Pop Clock Update: 246 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 14,803,050 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 September 27, 2015 9:10 AM EDT


†. Gen 2:7 . .Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


That almost appears to be through-the-nose artificial respiration; but even if it was, the attempt would have been futile. Pumping air into a corpse doesn't work. It's been tried and failed. The "breath of life" then, has to be something far more powerful seeing as how it has the ability to make something alive and sentient that on its own would normally remain quite still-- just as still as a log of cord wood.


To this day, no one really knows what life is. Man knows how to keep things alive for a time; but he doesn't as yet know how to make anything come to life. Only in man's fantasies can a little wooden puppet like Pinocchio transform into a real boy.


Pop Clock Update: 249 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 14,983,575 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 October 4, 2015 10:53 AM EDT


A common interpretation of inspiration is as follows:


†. 2Pet 1:20-21 . . No prophecy in Scripture ever came from the prophets themselves or because they wanted to prophesy. It was the Holy Spirit who moved the prophets to speak from God.


That's actually motivation rather than inspiration. This next example is better.


†. 2Tim 3:16 . . All Scripture is inspired by God


The Greek word for "inspired" is theopneustos (theh-op'-nyoo-stos) which is a combination of theo which means God, and pneustos which means to inflate: as in blowing up a balloon or a soccer ball.


Theopneustos is probably about as close as you'll get for a Greek word corresponding to Gen 2:7 where it's stated:


"Then Yhvh God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."


"breathed into" is pretty much what theopneustos says. But the breath of life isn't artificial respiration. Pumping air into a corpse doesn't work. It's been tried. The breath of life is a mysterious energy with enough power to even make solid rock sentient and aware. (Luke 3:8)


What all this means is: scripture is more than just text-- God has willed scripture to have a peculiar kind of life all its own.


†. Heb 4:12-13 . . For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.


Scripture, then, is a divine agent: it speaks about God, it speaks for God, and it speaks as God. In a manner of speaking then: scripture can be thought of as a close encounter.


"In its pages we recognize His voice, we hear a message of deep significance for every one of us. Through the spiritual dynamism and prophetic force of the Bible, the Holy Spirit spreads His light and His warmth over all men, in whatever historical or sociological situation they find themselves." (Paulus PP VI, from the Vatican, September 18, 1970)


Paulus PP VI said it well. So then: when people listen to the Bible, they listen to God; and when they mock and ridicule the Bible, they mock and ridicule God.


FYI: Ironically, it was the power of the voice of God on the pages of the Bible that motivated me to part company with Roman Catholicism.


Pop Clock Update: 256 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 15,404,800 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 October 6, 2015 10:16 AM EDT


Lord, save me!


Those three words are reputed to be the shortest prayer in the Bible. It's located at Mtt 14:30.


You know; it's a good thing that the length of one's prayer is unimportant seeing as how Peter might have been ten feet under before he finished reciting even one Our Father or a Hail Mary.


†. Mtt 6:7-8 . .When you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.


Pop Clock Update: 258 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 15,525,150 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 October 9, 2015 8:59 AM EDT


†. Jude 1:7 . . Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, gave themselves over to fornication and gone after strange flesh


The koiné Greek word for "fornication" in Jude's statement is ekporneuo (ek porn-yoo'-o) which means: to be utterly unchaste.


A lack of chastity is exemplified by a broad spectrum of unholy carnality including, but not limited to adultery, incest, living together, casual sex, swinger sex, wife swapping, sex between consenting adults, sex between consenting minors, sex between teachers and consenting students, sex with a sex toy, sex with a mannequin and/or sex with an inflatable doll, etc. To be "utterly" unchaste implies not just a preference for those kinds of sexual behaviors, but an addiction to them.


The word for "strange" is heteros (het'-er-os) which means: other or different. That could be taken to indicate bestiality but I think what it really refers to is unnatural sex; in other words: men sleeping with women, and vice versa, isn't strange but rather quite the norm. But men sleeping with men, and/or women sleeping with women is rather strange; viz: queer; which Webster's defines as: unconventional; in other words out of the ordinary.


Now; maybe the men of Sodom weren't gay; but their preference for the males instead of the females under Lot's roof indicate that they were at the least Bi. Since one is just as unconventional as the other then I really see no significant difference between the two. A man, or a woman, need not be psychologically LGBT to fall under the condemnation of going after strange flesh just so long as they go after it.


Mr. Phil Robertson of Duck Dynasty got himself in hot water for taking a stand against certain kinds of sexual conduct. Though his comments were politically unacceptable, Mr. Robertson is on good solid Christian ground because LGBT are depicted in the Bible as shameful, indecent, and unnatural.


†. Rom 1:26-27 . . God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men.


Now, there are folk who would love nothing better than to construe those remarks as hate speech; but if they do, I should hope they have better sense than to come after me because I'm not the bad guy: the author of Romans is their bad guy. I'm the author of neither the Bible nor of Christianity; and if some people aren't adult enough to discuss Christianity on a biblical level, then maybe they shouldn't be on a forum where Christianity is out in the open.


I've seen people on the internet attempt to tone down Rom 1:26-27 by construing it to be speaking of cult prostitution. Well; that doesn't fly. The language and grammar of that entire section from Rom 1:18 down to, and including Rom 2:1 is a per se indictment against the entire human race. In other words: though someone may not be LGBT, nevertheless they'll find themselves accused of something somewhere in that indictment right along with the LGBT.


You know; I am really curious how in the world LGBT obtained so much respectability. I mean; for centuries their manner of life was deemed extremely inappropriate, and now all of a sudden it has Federal protections as if LGBTs are on some sort of endangered species list.


Speaking of chastity: back in the decade of the 1950's, my sister, while in high school, got herself knocked-up out of wedlock. So our parents whisked her off to an out-of-state aunt until her baby was born; after which she gave it up for adoption. You see, in those days pre-marital conception was a disgrace; but nowadays celebrities go on talk shows to boast about their illegitimate children; even babies conceived with other people before their divorces are final; which is a double whammy of adultery and shame.


But according to biblical Christianity, there's a reckoning coming when all manner of scripturally unapproved carnal behaviors will finally be put in a right perspective.


†. 2Pet 2:6 . . He turned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes-- condemned them to destruction --making them an example to those who afterward would live impiously.


Pop Clock Update: 261 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 15,705,675 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 October 12, 2015 10:17 AM EDT


Everybody has problems with proclivities; which Webster's defines as inclinations or predispositions toward something: especially strong inherent inclinations toward something objectionable. Everybody also has problems with predilections; which Webster's defines as a natural liking for something; viz: a natural tendency to do or to be attracted to something.


†. Eph 2:2-4 . .We too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.


With a pronoun like "we" Paul included himself as someone with natural-born longings and desires for bad things. And the pronoun "all" precludes the possibility of any one Christian claiming to be born free of a strong inherent inclination toward something objectionable and/or a tendency to do, or to be attracted to, something bad.


The point is: unless something were done to remedy LGBT predilections and proclivities none of them would qualify for citizenship in either the new cosmos or the holy city depicted in the 21st chapter of Revelation. All would be barred entry even though Christ gave his life to atone for LGBT conduct.


The problem is: forgiven LGBT would go right on as LGBT just like always because their predilections and proclivities would drive them to it; and were they to suppress their LGBT predilections and proclivities for very long; I think they would eventually go mad with a nervous break down because they would be fighting against nature; which everybody instinctively knows is a fight that can't be won without suffering serious psychological consequences.


So then, it's futile to tell LGBT to stop acting that way when the problem is not their conduct; no, their conduct is merely a symptom; and as every informed person knows: you don't treat an illness by treating its symptoms-- that method has been proven ineffective.


God's remedy for LGBT is pretty extreme. He doesn't remove the LGBT's longings and desires; instead He regards the natural born LGBT's condition as so far gone that it can't be treated. In other words: He throws the baby out with the bath water, so to speak, and starts from scratch with a new baby.


†. John 3:3 . . I tell you the truth: no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.


The birth about which Christ spoke isn't an option; no, it's a must.


†. John 3:7 . .You must be born again.


That goes for everybody, not just LGBT, because Christ said "no one" can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again; which of course has to include all the holy people in the Old Testament too or otherwise "no one" has no useful meaning.


Pop Clock Update: 264 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 15,886,200 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 October 15, 2015 8:40 AM EDT


†. Gen 18:23 . . Abraham said: Will You sweep away the innocent along with the guilty?


The answer to that of course is a resounding YES!


†. Deut 5:9 . . I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me.


A parent's progeny isn't held responsible for their parent's conduct, but they do become collateral damage when God goes after the parents. For example the Flood. No doubt quite a few underage children drowned in that event due to their parents' wickedness. The same happened to any an all the children in Sodom and Gomorrah. And in moving against Pharaoh, God moved against everything that pertained to him; including, but not limited to, his entire country.


A horrific example of the principle of collateral damage is located at Num 16:25-34, and more at 2Sam 21:1-9; and would have occurred at Nineveh too had not the parents repented at Jonah's preaching. In point of fact, the principle of collateral damage is evident throughout the Old Testament where the lives of innocent children were effected not "for" their parents' sins; but rather: due to their parents' sins.


Personally; I feel very strongly that punishing a parent's conduct by taking it out on their innocent progeny is a cruel way of getting back at people. However; I'm resigned to cope with God's rather strange way of administering justice because that's just the way He is; and there's nothing that I, a puny little organic creature, can do about it; and besides: it's risky to challenge God because dissent is a crime in His realm.


Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker (Isa 45:9)


But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? (Rom 9:20)


Pop Clock Update: 267 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 16,066,725 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 October 18, 2015 8:58 AM EDT


I often encounter rational people who have come to the logical conclusion-- quite correctly --that God has set the bar too high; that He's made it humanly impossible to attain the kingdom of God; so what's the point of even trying.


And there are others who have decided that as bad as hell might be, it would be even worse to squander this life in self denial and quite possibly end up going to hell anyway. Those people have decided that it's better to live a life of pleasure here and a life of no pleasure there, rather than run the risk of having no pleasure in both places. I have to agree: that would be sad.


A third classification of folk are in a clash of wills with God. In other words: they are so determined not to give in to God's demands that they would rather be cremated alive than do so. In their minds: if they give in; then God will win; which for them is not only unacceptable; but thoroughly intolerable. Those people are tough; just as tough as the anti-commie crowd who proudly announce: Better dead than Red, and/or the pro-gun people who defiantly announce: If you want my guns; you'll have to pry them loose from my cold, dead fingers.


I'm not saying it's bad to be anti-commie, nor bad to be pro-gun. I'm just using those people's attitude to illustrate the bitter impasse going on between God and those who would rather reign in hell than serve in heaven.


Then there are people who have chosen hell over the kingdom of God because they'll be more at home in hell-- they'll fit in; but in the kingdom they wouldn't fit in.


And like they say: birds of a feather flock together; viz: some prefer the company of certain kinds of rather unsavory folk; and people in the kingdom will be so heavenly minded that they'd no fun to be with at all. In addition; people in hell are free to speak their minds, and use all the purple epithets, double entendres, colorful metaphors, and F-bombs that they want; but in the kingdom, people have to be careful with their choice of words.


So you see; for some folk hell is the better choice; and were they to end up in the kingdom of God instead; I think they would actually be very disappointed.


You really have to kind of envy people who've made hell their choice rather than their luck. At least they know where they're going when they pass on and have mentally prepared themselves for the worst; but the approximately 1.2 billion Catholics currently working towards their salvation as per Rome's interpretation of Php 2:12-- and the approximately 8.2 million Jehovah's Witnesses doing the same --haven't a clue where they're headed. They're hoping for the best; while in the back of their minds dreading the worst because for people working towards their salvation, the kingdom of God, is never a sure thing. In point of fact, the Roman catechism prohibits Catholics from taking the kingdom for granted.


Council of Trent Session 6, Chapter 16, Canon 16: If anyone says that he will for certain, with an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance even to the end, unless he shall have learned this by a special revelation, let him be anathema.


Catholics and Jehovah's Witnesses who fail to adequately work towards their salvation will be cruelly heckled without mercy in hell by the very people that they at one time condemned as unfit to inherit the kingdom of God. The mockers will taunt and sing: "Hey Christian! how about give us the gospel ay? Tell us about the glories of the kingdom of God."


Pop Clock Update: 270 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 16,066,725 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 October 21, 2015 10:33 AM EDT


†. John 5:24 . . I assure you: those who listen to my message, and believe in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.


Q: What happens to born-again Christians who stop listening to Christ and stop believing in God who sent him? Do they then lose eternal life, end up condemned for their sins, and pass back from life into death?


A: The question is based upon an inadequate knowledge of the qualities of eternal life.


1• There has never been a time when eternal life didn't exist because it's the kind of life that sustains God; viz: eternal life always was, it always is, and it always shall be. In other words: eternal life is an imperishable kind of life that's impervious to death, decay, and the aging process. Were that not true, it would be possible to assassinate God.


That being the case, then eternal life is impervious to the wages of sin. No matter how many times they sin, nor how serious their sins, people with eternal life cannot lose it any more than God can.


2• Truly born-again Christians are incapable of rejecting Christ's message and/or disbelieving in God.


†. 1John 3:9 . .Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.


Pop Clock Update: 273 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 16,427,775 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 October 27, 2015 8:15 AM EDT


I've often heard it complained that hell is not equal; viz: whether someone is a mass murderer or a penny-ante thief; all get the same punishment. Well; I'm not so sure about that.


†. Luke 12:47-48 . .That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be required.


Pop Clock Update: 279 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 16,788,825 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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Flag weberhome02 October 30, 2015 10:49 AM EDT


According to the US Census Bureau; a minimum of 7,000 people die in America and cross over to the other side every day-- day after day after day. Death in America is relentless; it never takes a coffee break nor a day off; not even on holidays.


Since beginning this thread, roughly 1,974,000 Americans departed this life; among them my very favorite nephew; whom I held in my arms for the first time when he was but an infant of 21 days.


The grief that I felt at my nephew's passing was not for my loss; it was a grief born out of intense pity for him: for his loss. My nephew died too soon. He was only 51: he should have lived another twenty years at least.


While he was doing time in the California State corrections system for gross vehicular manslaughter, my nephew dreamed of one day reconnecting with his family and going to college to become a counselor. He did both when he was paroled in July of 2012. He reconnected and he went to school, but didn't get a chance to finish because on Sept 25, 2015 my favorite nephew dropped dead as suddenly as flipping a light switch.


I'm getting over his final round of bad luck; but I'm still haunted from not knowing my nephew's whereabouts: whether he made it to safety or not.


Pop Clock Update: 282 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 16,969,350 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since January 21, 2015.


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