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5 years ago  ::  Aug 03, 2012 - 11:02AM #1
allan444
Posts: 472

----------------

This is a topic that is very infrequently mentioned in Lutheran circles. To  my Missouri Synod aunt who was married to a pastor,  tongues was of the devil.  Interestling  enough the so called  “father" of the charismatic movement  in the USA was a Lutheran pastor - Harald Bredesen.


I bring this topic up because of its importance in scripture and in the Christians life. The  church has all but ignored this important tool for a more powerful and dynamic Christian walk. Speaking in tongues or praying in the Spirit is when the Holy Spirit prays to the Father through our Spirit in a unknown language ( unknown to the one doing the speaking).  The only two exceptions are  when it is used in the Church meeting when it can be interpreted by another and during the original Pentecost when it was a known language (although still unknown to the speaker). Acts 2: 11 ….we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own language.


I have found that praying in  the Spirit helps me pray through difficult situations as well as  generally keeps my “spiritual battery” charged.  Scripture tells us that it gives us rest as well a daily refreshing


"With stammering lips and another tongue, He will speak to this people, to whom He said, "this is the rest with which may cause the  weary to rest and this is the refreshing." …….  Isaiah 28:11,12


Does anyone else find this practice helpful to their spiritual walk?


                                                            -------------------------


For if I pray in  a tongue,  my Spirit prays……………. (I Cor  14:14)


I thank God I speak in tongues more than all of you………. (I Cor  14:18)


I would like everyone of you to speak in tongues……….    (I Cor 14:5)


Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves ……..( I Cor 14:4)


But you dear  friends, by  building yourself up  in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit. ……………(Jude 20)


In the same way , the Spirit helps in our weakness. We do not know what  we ought to pray for, but  the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans………..  (Roman 8:26)


And he who searches our heart know the mind of the Spirit, because  the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God……….   (Romans 8:27)


                                                            -----------------------------


 


 

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5 years ago  ::  Aug 09, 2012 - 6:29AM #2
allan444
Posts: 472

 



To clarify my previous note.



 In my anecdotal comment about my Missouri Synod aunt, I did not mean to disparage the Missouri Synod.



 Back in the 60’s and 70’s when the charismatic movement started to infiltrate some of the mainline denomination the MS commissioned a study ( Project Wittenberg )about the Charismatic movement and  of the  practice of praying in the spirit (in tongues)  and came to the conclusion that it this practice was possible and acceptable by individuals  .



Project Wittenberg
The Charismatic Movement and Lutheran Theology
A Report of the
Commission on Theology and Church Relations
of the Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod
January 1972



……………………………………. “The Christian church today will accept with joy and gratitude any gift that the Spirit in His grace may choose to bestow on us for the purpose of edifying the body of Christ. It will recognize that the Lord does not forsake His church but promises the abiding presence of His Spirit. The church, therefore, will not reject out of hand the possibility that God may in His grace and wisdom endow some in Christendom with the same abilities and powers He gave His church in past centuries. It will take care lest it quench the Spirit by neither praying for nor expecting God's presence and power in building His church. But it will also take seriously the admonition of the apostle to "test the spirits to see whether they are of God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world."…………………………………



www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/witten...


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5 years ago  ::  Aug 12, 2012 - 12:18PM #3
WannabeTheo
Posts: 401

Aug 3, 2012 -- 11:02AM, allan444 wrote:


----------------

This is a topic that is very infrequently mentioned in Lutheran circles. To  my Missouri Synod aunt who was married to a pastor,  tongues was of the devil.  Interestling  enough the so called  “father" of the charismatic movement  in the USA was a Lutheran pastor - Harald Bredesen.


I bring this topic up because of its importance in scripture and in the Christians life. The  church has all but ignored this important tool for a more powerful and dynamic Christian walk. Speaking in tongues or praying in the Spirit is when the Holy Spirit prays to the Father through our Spirit in a unknown language ( unknown to the one doing the speaking).  The only two exceptions are  when it is used in the Church meeting when it can be interpreted by another and during the original Pentecost when it was a known language (although still unknown to the speaker). Acts 2: 11 ….we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own language.


I have found that praying in  the Spirit helps me pray through difficult situations as well as  generally keeps my “spiritual battery” charged.  Scripture tells us that it gives us rest as well a daily refreshing


"With stammering lips and another tongue, He will speak to this people, to whom He said, "this is the rest with which may cause the  weary to rest and this is the refreshing." …….  Isaiah 28:11,12


Does anyone else find this practice helpful to their spiritual walk?


                                                            -------------------------


For if I pray in  a tongue,  my Spirit prays……………. (I Cor  14:14)


I thank God I speak in tongues more than all of you………. (I Cor  14:18)


I would like everyone of you to speak in tongues……….    (I Cor 14:5)


Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves ……..( I Cor 14:4)


But you dear  friends, by  building yourself up  in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit. ……………(Jude 20)


In the same way , the Spirit helps in our weakness. We do not know what  we ought to pray for, but  the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans………..  (Roman 8:26)


And he who searches our heart know the mind of the Spirit, because  the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God……….   (Romans 8:27)


                                                            -----------------------------


 


 




This topic hasn't received any responses, maybe because this board is somewhat dead, and maybe because, as you note, the whole speaking in tongues deal is foreign to Lutherans.


I have to say, you seem to be cherry picking phrases, not even whole verses, from 1 Cor 14 to justify speaking in tongues.  When I read the whole verse, I hear Paul sort of putting down the practice:


 4 Those who speak in a tongue build up themselves, but those who prophesy build up the church. (1Co 14:4 NRS)


18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you;
19 nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind, in order to instruct others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue. (1Co 14:18-19 NRS)


I could post more verses, but I would encourage those interested to open the bible and read 1 Cor 14 for themselves.


I think your use of tongues in private is fine, especially if you find it brings you closer to God.  I'm not as keen on its use in church.  From what little I know of tongue speaking churches, and I admit my knowledge is little and indirect, speaking in tongues can become a show and a competition.  But as a private meditation, I think it's great if it works for you.

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5 years ago  ::  Aug 13, 2012 - 8:28AM #4
allan444
Posts: 472

Aug 12, 2012 -- 12:18PM, WannabeTheo wrote:





......................................"...I have to say, you seem to be cherry picking phrases, not even whole verses, from 1 Cor 14 to justify speaking in tongues.  When I read the whole verse, I hear Paul sort of putting down the practice:


 4 Those who speak in a tongue build up themselves, but those who prophesy build up the church. (1Co 14:4 NRS)


18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you;
19 nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind, in order to instruct others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue. (1Co 14:18-19 NRS)


I could post more verses, but I would encourage those interested to open the bible and read 1 Cor 14 for themselves..."................................




_____________________________________________________________________________


---



Theo,


I agree that from  these two verses, you get the  impression  that Paul is not  a big fan of “Praying in the Spirit”  while in church.


On the other hand ,  you can also take away from these verses that Paul is overall  quite positive about this form of prayer  when outside the church.  ………"I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you."


This all kind of makes sense since we go to church as a community for fellowship with the idea of building each other up. While at home in our private  prayer time we are trying to build ourselves up in our personal faith and in our personal walk with God.  Paul reiterates that ..........."anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves" .


                                                          ---------


 


Aug 12, 2012 -- 12:18PM, WannabeTheo wrote:





"I think your use of tongues in private is fine, especially if you find it brings you closer to God. I'm not as keen on its use in church. From what little I know of tongue speaking churches, and I admit my knowledge is little and indirect, speaking in tongues can become a show and a competition."




___________________________________________________________________________


As discussed above I agree and I think Paul would also, that in the church praying in the spirit is not very important. Paul places prophecy above speaking in tongues. Paul also states that during the church service, that only a few were given the gift of speaking in tongues that conveys a message to the the church body and where someone follows with an interpretation


"Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.".........to another (is given the gift) speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongue   ( I Corinthians 12:7-11)


 Do all speak in tongues?   (No, not in the church) (I Corinthians 12:30)


" But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue. "       ( I Corinthians 14:19)



____________


Aug 12, 2012 -- 12:18PM, WannabeTheo wrote:





 


"I think your use of tongues in private is fine, especially if you find it brings you closer to God............................................................................But as a private meditation, I think it's great if it works for you."




_________________________________________________________________________



Jesus seems to be more definitive when he says


..." these signs will accompany those who believe: .....they will speak in new tongues;......Mark 16:7 



Additionaly, the following scripture , although critical of the practice when done in a group setting , does appear to be saying that the everyone does have the ability to speak in tongues.


So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?  ( I Corinthians 14:23)


In this passage Paul is  obviously not speaking about the public gift of tongues followed by interpretation (giving a comprehensible message to the listeners) of which only a few have the ability to do. ( I Corinthians 12:10,30).


                                                     ___________________ 


 


                   

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5 years ago  ::  Sep 17, 2012 - 5:58AM #5
allan444
Posts: 472

.
 Scripture tells us :


“rejoice always; pray without ceasing; in everything give thanks; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus"  (I Thess: 5:16-18)


 Once you start praying in the Spirit you will find this passage by Paul to be more meaningful  , since you can decide to   pray  in the Spirit at any time during the day, while at the computer,  while stopped at a red light…...... just rest in the
Spirit  and allow your spirit to be engaged  by the Holy Spirit to speak this heavenly language and  you will in fact be doing to  some extent what Paul is suggesting that we all do in his  statement above.....”pray without ceasing”…....   for you are  allowing the Holy Spirit to interceed for you and others throughout the day.                                          


   ____________________


 
Let us  love God and worship God our Father and our Lord Jesus with all our  heart soul and mind, and let us use all the resources he has so graciously given us:


 "Well then, what shall I do? I will pray in the spirit, and I will also pray in words I understand. I will sing in the spirit, and I will also sing in words I understand."  (I Corinthian 14:15 NLT)


                                                   _________________


 

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5 years ago  ::  Sep 23, 2012 - 9:59PM #6
allan444
Posts: 472

                                                  ______________________


God used to talk with Adam one on one what joy what a life .


Then Adam was forced out of the Garden but later God said I love man so much that I  will send my son Jesus to man to help him redeem him and guide him. Then Jesus introduces us to the  third part of the Trinity. After the resurrection the disciples were together on a Sunday evening  in a locked room when Jesus suddenly appears  them  and breaths on them and says to them  receive the Holy Spirit , just like us when we are water baptized we receive the Holy Spirit .   And so these disciples who are given the  Holy Spirit  are told yet to wait to be   somehow fully empowered  by this same  Holy Spirit at Pentecost.


Jesus tells us that as a father will not give his son a scorpion if he asks for an egg so he  will abide by our request* when   we ask similarly to be empowered** and fully immersed   by this same Holy Spirit that we received at infant baptism.

*Luke 11:13 “ If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"
  
** (of which one manifestation of this empowerment would be praying in the spirit / praying in tongues)  


                                            ___________  

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5 years ago  ::  Sep 30, 2012 - 4:58AM #7
allan444
Posts: 472

...........continuation of previous note.............


Sep 23, 2012 -- 9:59PM, allan444 wrote:


                                                  ______________________


God used to talk with Adam one on one what joy what a life .
Then Adam was forced out of the Garden but later God said I love man so much that I  will send my son Jesus to man to help him redeem him and guide him. Then Jesus introduces us to the  third part of the Trinity. After the resurrection the disciples were together on a Sunday evening  in a locked room when Jesus suddenly appears  them  and breaths on them and says to them  receive the Holy Spirit , just like us when we are water baptized we receive the Holy Spirit .  And so these disciples who are given the  Holy Spirit  are told yet to wait to be   somehow fully empowered  by this same  Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
Jesus tells us that as a father will not give his son a scorpion if he asks for an egg so he  will abide by our request* when   we ask similarly to be empowered** and fully immersed   by this same Holy Spirit that we received at infant baptism.

*Luke 11:13 “ If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"
  
** (of which one manifestation of this empowerment would be praying in the spirit / praying in tongues)    




                                                   ________________


This experience of empowerment by the Holy Spirit (Baptism with the Holy Spirit) was not a one time event at Pentecost for scripture tells us that it also occurred


10 years after Pentecost


*Acts 11:15-17


And also


20 years after Pentecost


**Acts 19:1-6


                                   ___________________


*Acts  11:15-17


15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with " water, but you will be baptized with " the Holy Spirit.’ 17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”


**Acts 19:1-6


While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when " you believed?”
They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”
“John’s baptism,” they replied.
Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues " and prophesied.


 




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5 years ago  ::  Oct 05, 2012 - 6:04AM #8
allan444
Posts: 472

note continued


=======================================================


**Acts 19:1-6
While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when " you believed?”
They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”
“John’s baptism,” they replied.
Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues " and prophesied.


==========================================================



 And so Paul asked them when you believed did you receive the Holy Spirit.  He therefore separated the two   events believing and being Baptized/ empowered  by  the Holy Spirit


When one believes one  becomes a Christian and are "saved" ,"born again" and have the Holy Spirit living in them.


This happens to many Lutherans at infant  baptism.


This second experience Baptism in the Holy Spirit can occur at the same time or may occur afterward


For example in the verses above


 ”on hearing this , they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus” –( ie receive the Holy Spirit , are saved, born again, have eternal life  are Christians, )


(then)


 6“When Paul placed his hands on them , the Holy Spirit  came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied” ( ie empowered by this same Holy Spirit)


                                             _________________________

I know this is not good Lutheran Theology , but it is my interpretation of these verses.


I appreciate the opportunity to share my thoughts


Have a blessed day !
                                             ____________________


   P.S.    Harald Bredesen the Lutheran Pastor that I mentioned in the first post has introduced several prominent persons to this experience including Pat Boone, Pat Robertson and Dale Evans ( wife of Roy Rogers))
                                     _______________________________


 .

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3 years ago  ::  Dec 19, 2014 - 12:27AM #9
Roymond
Posts: 3,779

Aug 13, 2012 -- 8:28AM, allan444 wrote:


Additionaly, the following scripture , although critical of the practice when done in a group setting , does appear to be saying that the everyone does have the ability to speak in tongues.


So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?  ( I Corinthians 14:23)


In this passage Paul is  obviously not speaking about the public gift of tongues followed by interpretation (giving a comprehensible message to the listeners) of which only a few have the ability to do. ( I Corinthians 12:10,30).                                                      




Paul is criticizing the use of tongues in the disorderly, rabble-like, self-indulgent fashion of numerous people babbling all at once.  If you are ever in a chruch where that happens, you should bid them be silent, because it is NOT of God.


The Holy Spirit, through Paul, gives very strict guides for tongues in public worship, and there is no use there apart from " the public gift of tongues followed by interpretation".  I have only a couple of times been present where tongues was manifested in accordance with Paul's guidance; interestingly, one was in a Lutheran church, where the pastor immediately stepped forward, read the pertinent passages from Corinthians, and asked if there was an interpretation.  I found my mind flooded with words, and the shock of "What?!  ME?!??!!" kept me silent while someone else spoke up.  And though the words of the other person were not exactly what I had received, it struck me that they were the way that person would have said it themselves, while what I had received was the way I would speak.  The other was at a conference, and after the person stopped speaking purportedly in tongues, the pastor also stepped up and asked if there was an interpretation.  I was floored when, after a long silence, he admonished us all that either it had not been a message from the Spirit, as no interpretation had come, or that those to whom the Spirit had given an interpretation had been too fearful to speak up.  From that point he gave a brief homily on the need to examine ourselves and to be open to the Spirit.


Both of these examplify the orderly fashion Paul sets forth for the public "use" of tongues.



FWIW, I did a paper on speaking in tongues that was reviewed by three professors at an LCMS seminary, and which swayed one opinion and silenced another.  I began with the proposition that it was not, as that seminary maintained, real languages, but just babble from the "loosened" mindsof the speakers.  Then I turned to the literature on glossalaia, where researcher after researcher attested that when the cognitive mind is cut out and the brain allowed to form sounds that are vocalized, the result is an expression of deep emotions, from fears and frustrations to confusion and questioning, and more.  In other words, it is a direct outpouring of what we commonly call "the heart" in vocal form, and as such is generally held to be therapeutic (in a rather non-directed manner).  Now, I argued, if such vocalization is directed toward God, what can this be called but a form of prayer?


The New Testament exegete in the group was convinced.  The systematician acknowledged that his usual objections did not touch on this analysis.  The third said he would have to study it further, but insisted that the prohibition of no tongues without an interpretation had to be followed, whereupon the other two agreed.



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3 years ago  ::  Dec 28, 2014 - 12:19PM #10
allan444
Posts: 472

Dec 19, 2014 -- 12:27AM, Roymond wrote:

                            



Paul is criticizing the use of tongues in the disorderly, rabble-like, self-indulgent fashion of numerous people babbling all at once.  If you are ever in a chruch where that happens, you should bid them be silent, because it is NOT of God.




So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?  ( I Corinthians 14:23)


My take is that Paul is discouraging the group practice of speaking in tongues   mainly because he is more concerned with the visitor at the church being put off by the practice and perhaps not coming back.  


Back in the 80’s I attended an Episcopal church that had both a traditional and “modern” service with a band guitars etc. During that service when everyone prayed together in tongues ( for a few minutes) it was very uplifting self edifying and God glorifying,  and when the congregation sang together in tongues also for a few minutes  the sound was  beautiful  and harmonious after all it is the Holy Spirit influencing the praying/singing which is none the less initiated by the speaker.  


However I agree   that this practice should be discouraged during a corporate  church service for the reason given above  (I Cor14:23)


As far as in the privacy of your home it think it is fine to pray in the spririt.


--------------------------------


…"Well then, what shall I do? I will pray in the spirit, and I will also pray in words I understand. I will sing in the spirit, and I will also sing in words I understand."  (I Corinthian 14:15 NLT)


…"I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you." Apostle Paul  (I Cor  14:18)




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