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3 years ago  ::  May 29, 2012 - 11:02AM #11
BeerLover
Posts: 1,373

Reforming the Roman Catholic Church from within is dangerous business.  May I remind you all the Luther had a price on his head for a while.  And he was excommunicated.  Back in Luther's time, excommunication meant you were going straight to hell.  The Chuch was the only game in town if you were Christian.


But there is an alternative.  Other Catholic churches exist independnet of Rome, but recognized by Rome as having valid sacrements.  These include the Old Catholic Church, the Polish Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox (of course), and one upstart- the United Free Catholic Church (UFCC).  The UFCC is a small, but growing denomination which is patterned after the Council of Utrecht (sp?).  They want to get back to old ways.  I think it's a great alternative for disaffected Roman Catholics and even Episcopalians who don't like the direction their church is going on social issues.

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3 years ago  ::  May 29, 2012 - 1:19PM #12
Roodog
Posts: 10,168

I still "like"(for literary purposes) the idea of the EU Hiroshimizing the Vatican during a conclave, then going after the surviving clergy for various and sundry crimes such as molestation, money laundering, obstruction of justice and, of course, the catch-all charge of conspiracy. Then all all the churches in Western Europe is padlocked, assets siezed, schools and hospitals nationalized. Then again the Americas would have to follow suit.

For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.

St. Thomas Aquinas

If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9
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3 years ago  ::  May 29, 2012 - 2:04PM #13
Dutch777
Posts: 9,136

May 29, 2012 -- 1:19PM, Roodog wrote:


I still "like"(for literary purposes) the idea of the EU Hiroshimizing the Vatican during a conclave, then going after the surviving clergy for various and sundry crimes such as molestation, money laundering, obstruction of justice and, of course, the catch-all charge of conspiracy. Then all all the churches in Western Europe is padlocked, assets siezed, schools and hospitals nationalized. Then again the Americas would have to follow suit.




Roo,


There a certain impulsion creatrice about your suggestions which I find compelling.  Nevertheless, I'd forgo the nuclear  bombing of the Vatican; too destructive of fine art and archecture.  A basic invasion by NATO forces would suffice.  Then I'd exhume the corpse of JP-1 and subject it to an autopsy to determine precisely which type of poison was used on him.


The men in miters?  I'd put them to work doing the Mt.25 works of mercy --- but be sure to keep them away from the funding.  They'd steal anything --- including a red hot stove --- and then they'd return to steal the smoke.

The Path
To Moon Lake
Doesn't Go
There.

So Walk
Your own Dharma*Path
And Be
Mindful

Dutch
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3 years ago  ::  May 29, 2012 - 11:38PM #14
Roodog
Posts: 10,168

May 29, 2012 -- 2:04PM, Dutch777 wrote:


May 29, 2012 -- 1:19PM, Roodog wrote:


I still "like"(for literary purposes) the idea of the EU Hiroshimizing the Vatican during a conclave, then going after the surviving clergy for various and sundry crimes such as molestation, money laundering, obstruction of justice and, of course, the catch-all charge of conspiracy. Then all all the churches in Western Europe is padlocked, assets siezed, schools and hospitals nationalized. Then again the Americas would have to follow suit.




Roo,


There a certain impulsion creatrice about your suggestions which I find compelling.  Nevertheless, I'd forgo the nuclear  bombing of the Vatican; too destructive of fine art and archecture.  A basic invasion by NATO forces would suffice.  Then I'd exhume the corpse of JP-1 and subject it to an autopsy to determine precisely which type of poison was used on him.


The men in miters?  I'd put them to work doing the Mt.25 works of mercy --- but be sure to keep them away from the funding.  They'd steal anything --- including a red hot stove --- and then they'd return to steal the smoke.





The only way to reform the RCC is to destroy it, Root and Branch. That means getting rid of its hierarchy and bureaucracy in one fell swoop. It means siezing all of its assets, nationalizing  their hospitals,schools,  colleges and orphanages. It means padlocking their churches, dissolving their monasteries and convents and handing down charges against their clergy for molestation, money laundering, obstructing justice and conspiracy.


Otherwise, the Roman Catholic Church will remain as it always have.

For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.

St. Thomas Aquinas

If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9
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3 years ago  ::  May 30, 2012 - 7:49PM #15
WaveringCC
Posts: 5,140

May 29, 2012 -- 11:38PM, Roodog wrote:


May 29, 2012 -- 2:04PM, Dutch777 wrote:


May 29, 2012 -- 1:19PM, Roodog wrote:


I still "like"(for literary purposes) the idea of the EU Hiroshimizing the Vatican during a conclave, then going after the surviving clergy for various and sundry crimes such as molestation, money laundering, obstruction of justice and, of course, the catch-all charge of conspiracy. Then all all the churches in Western Europe is padlocked, assets siezed, schools and hospitals nationalized. Then again the Americas would have to follow suit.




Roo,


There a certain impulsion creatrice about your suggestions which I find compelling.  Nevertheless, I'd forgo the nuclear  bombing of the Vatican; too destructive of fine art and archecture.  A basic invasion by NATO forces would suffice.  Then I'd exhume the corpse of JP-1 and subject it to an autopsy to determine precisely which type of poison was used on him.


The men in miters?  I'd put them to work doing the Mt.25 works of mercy --- but be sure to keep them away from the funding.  They'd steal anything --- including a red hot stove --- and then they'd return to steal the smoke.





The only way to reform the RCC is to destroy it, Root and Branch. That means getting rid of its hierarchy and bureaucracy in one fell swoop. It means siezing all of its assets, nationalizing  their hospitals,schools,  colleges and orphanages. It means padlocking their churches, dissolving their monasteries and convents and handing down charges against their clergy for molestation, money laundering, obstructing justice and conspiracy.


Otherwise, the Roman Catholic Church will remain as it always have.




Isn't that what Henry VIII did?  And yet there are more RCs than Anglicans going to church in England these days.


The RCC will never be destroyed. But if doesn't reform, it may shrink and no longer count half of all the world's christians among its members.  It may become simply one of many christian churches, without the advantage of sheer numbers it now has.


Hans Kung is safe - he can't teach as a Rome-licensed theologian these days, but he still teaches and does research. He said losing the license actually opened up doors by providing more freedom to research and teach whatever new insights he might be exploring. They will never excommunicate him nor defrock him. They know that he is right about papal infallibility but can't admit it of course. One of Benedict's first actions as pope was to invite Kung to lunch.  Most likely he was hoping that his old friend from university teaching days and Vatican II (when Ratzinger was a progressive also - before the 1968 student riots caused such a radical reaction and dramatic turn in his views) might be willing to meet him "half-way".  It didn't happen. The lunch meeting lasted about 3 hours and they parted apparently ageeing to continue to disagree.  The uber-Catholics were very disappointed. They had hoped Kung would be thrown out. 


However, I agree with those here who think that Kung's book and other writings are just wishful thinking.  He doesn't want to give up the hope that someday Vatican II really will be implemented. He is an old man - let him die with hope in his heart.

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3 years ago  ::  May 30, 2012 - 8:57PM #16
Dutch777
Posts: 9,136

[/quote]


Isn't that what Henry VIII did?  And yet there are more RCs than Anglicans going to church in England these days.


Absolutely true.  Of course, there's more Muslems going to Mosque than RCs going to church in England.  I don't know about the Hindus or Sikhs, but they're probably in the high-attendance zone.  Christianity in the UK and Europe is now a special niche activity.  As for the more active members of the CoE and RCC in the UK --- I suspect that a percentage of them are recent arrivals from the 3rd. world.  I further suspect that after the next few generations in the UK, their stats will approximate those of the indigenous Anglo-Saxons with respect to church attendance.


The RCC will never be destroyed. But if doesn't reform, it may shrink and no longer count half of all the world's christians among its members.  It may become simply one of many christian churches, without the advantage of sheer numbers it now has.


Yes, the RCC will probably be around forever.  It's numerical strength will be in the 3rd. world --- where it will be in danger of being voodooized into a Santoria or Candombe amalgam.


Hans Kung is safe - he can't teach as a Rome-licensed theologian these days, but he still teaches and does research. He said losing the license actually opened up doors by providing more freedom to research and teach whatever new insights he might be exploring. They will never excommunicate him nor defrock him. They know that he is right about papal infallibility but can't admit it of course. One of Benedict's first actions as pope was to invite Kung to lunch.  Most likely he was hoping that his old friend from university teaching days and Vatican II (when Ratzinger was a progressive also - before the 1968 student riots caused such a radical reaction and dramatic turn in his views) might be willing to meet him "half-way".  It didn't happen. The lunch meeting lasted about 3 hours and they parted apparently ageeing to continue to disagree.  The uber-Catholics were very disappointed. They had hoped Kung would be thrown out. 


What I don't understand is why the RCC has been relatively mild in it's handling of Hans Kung but has come down on Roger Haight like an anvil.


However, I agree with those here who think that Kung's book and other writings are just wishful thinking.  He doesn't want to give up the hope that someday Vatican II really will be implemented. He is an old man - let him die with hope in his heart.


It's would be utterly cruel to want the alternative.


[/quote]


The Path
To Moon Lake
Doesn't Go
There.

So Walk
Your own Dharma*Path
And Be
Mindful

Dutch
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3 years ago  ::  May 30, 2012 - 9:21PM #17
Roodog
Posts: 10,168

I had cited what would be required to clean up the RCC, namely revoking it's status as a sovereign state, making their entire staff accountable to the laws of the nations they minister in and getting rid of mandatory celibacy. If controlling the property of the church is an issue, then the denomination could own the property like it does in TEC.


Given the scandalous conduct of the clergy toward children and young women, I would urge that nobody raises their children to be Roman Catholic and that any Catholic institution which deals with children and young people be closed down.


Roman Catholicism should be rated XXX  (Nobody under 30 (XXX) admitted)

For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.

St. Thomas Aquinas

If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9
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3 years ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 1:34AM #18
Roodog
Posts: 10,168

abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/wis-archdioc...


Some more news, coming out of Wisconsin.


Have at it, guys.

For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.

St. Thomas Aquinas

If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9
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3 years ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 6:10AM #19
BBarton
Posts: 1,670

May 28, 2012 -- 3:00PM, GRobit625 wrote:


May 28, 2012 -- 6:08AM, BBarton wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 9:24PM, Roodog wrote:


May 24, 2012 -- 7:39PM, GRobit625 wrote:


May 24, 2012 -- 7:14PM, Roodog wrote:


I wonder if Kung is going to be defrocked and excommunicated, or perhaps have a mysterious and fatal heart attack......(like JP1)





He's too old and insignificant to the Vatican. When his time is up, he'll more than likely get a full blown RC send off.





If he really gets into the RCC doghouse, there is always TEC.




I find it rather courageous to reform from within.  It's always easier to walk away.




And foolish. It's going to take more than a handful of folks to change the way business has been handled for over a thousand years.





Foolish?  That depends on what one values.  I for at least one, think Jesus died to show us how to live.  Afterall, it was the religious that had him killed.  If you ask me, foolish is all the individuals that make a whole, who spend their limited time and productive energy perpetuating ignorance because they lack the spine to make a difference.


 

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3 years ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 6:12AM #20
BBarton
Posts: 1,670

May 28, 2012 -- 8:46PM, Roodog wrote:


May 28, 2012 -- 6:08AM, BBarton wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 9:24PM, Roodog wrote:


May 24, 2012 -- 7:39PM, GRobit625 wrote:


May 24, 2012 -- 7:14PM, Roodog wrote:


I wonder if Kung is going to be defrocked and excommunicated, or perhaps have a mysterious and fatal heart attack......(like JP1)





He's too old and insignificant to the Vatican. When his time is up, he'll more than likely get a full blown RC send off.





If he really gets into the RCC doghouse, there is always TEC.




I find it rather courageous to reform from within.  It's always easier to walk away.





Tell that to Huss, Savonarola and Luther, B. Barton





There's a difference between walking away and being forced out.  God bless those who stand against evil especially when finding it in our selves, families, or religions.

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