I simply don't buy it. God demands that we are loyal to Him and obey His commandments. He demands a covenant relationship with His people.

Apr 14, 2012 -- 3:29PM, Nino0814 wrote:

The folks I met who use this have a different meaning for the term "religious".  They see religion as "man made" tradition, and "spirituality" as immediate and experiental.  I tell them that being "spiritual" requires intention and discipline.   Religion is the discipline that guides the life of a "spiritual" person.

That's pretty much the way I see it. 

As to GRo's point about "spiritual cop-out", I suppose it could be that for some; for others, not so.  Still, for others, SBNR could be a warning sign indicating "Spiritual narcissism".

Although I never use this expression I can understand it.  To me spiritual means believing that there exists a spirit out there which cares for me, and also that there is a spirit in me in addition to all the material stuff doctors examine.  Religious means (to me) believing in the things presented in the holy books (in the case of Christians the Bible) and practicing the orders of an established religious organization.   

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I happen to believe in the concept of a Covenant being requisite to being accepted by God. He wants a relationship which entails mutual commitment and responsibility.[/quote]


Roo,

Some points to ponder:

1.  I agree with your above-referenced statement.

2.  In this matter, you and I share the same presupposition.

3.  Others, e.g. the SBNR types, do not share this presupposition.

4.  Therefore, stating the above-referenced presupposition to them is a waste of time.

5.  It is as much a waste of time as they stating some new-age claptrap to you.

6.  "Presuppositionalism" was largely developed by hardshelled Reformed/Calvinist theologians.  It is hardly a secular, humanist, leftwing cabal.

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I happen  to be a Calvinist and pretty hard cored about it.

Yes, your 5 point Calvinism is your set of presupposition, along with other presuppositions, which you hold foundational, irreducible and incontestable.

I see the SBNR notion to be antithetical  even to the Communal approach to salvation championed by KJS not to mention the scriptual appraches.

Indeed you do see it that way.  It could not  be otherwise, given your presuppositions.  The SBNR folks don't share your presuppositions, but work from a different set.  They therefore have a different perception.

I don't agree with them; but then, I don't share their complex of presuppositions either.

 SBNR is the ultimate in individualistic salvation so sharply condemned by KJS. 

As far as I understand her statements, KJS sees salvation as the individual being saved within community, not apart from it, nor being homogenized through it.  It's really compatable with Dr. Victor Frankel's individual-within-community insights.  It also accords with Jesus' distinctly Judaic comcept of the salvation or re-integration & re-constitution of the Jewish People, the Kingdom of God established on earth, an inarguably communal concept.

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