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Switch to Forum Live View Mormonism; 'Invented Religion' To Excuse Adultery
2 years ago  ::  Apr 06, 2012 - 1:12AM #11
moksha8088
Posts: 4,911

Apr 5, 2012 -- 11:28PM, withwonderingawe wrote:


Helen Mar Kimball at 14 was sealed to Joseph at her father’s request. Joseph told her “‘If you will take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation & exaltation and that of your father’s household & all of your kindred.” Some say she was manipulated by this great promised but she too became part of this Holy Order in which all the members received their second anointing so their calling and elections made sure.




Withwonderingawe, have you ever wondered about this strange route to salvation and exaltation?  This promise made to Heber Kimball, his family and all their descendants to receive these indulgences in return for their consent and Helen's acquiescence to marry Joseph Smith has always struck me as being an extremely different pathway than everyone else needs to take.


Did Joseph Smith actually have the power to grant salvation and exaltation?  Did he regard the agreement to marry this teenager as performing good works without the formality of all that ordinance stuff?

Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 06, 2012 - 2:10AM #12
MMCSFOX
Posts: 1,524

Moke, I feel that the ability and willingness of some to be able to attack the Church is one of those things that is sent to try us. If not so why not tie the adversary and prevent his abuses. It is our responsibility to study out truths and gain an understanding through the Holy Ghost by fasting and prayer. I was taught many truths while young but did not gain many understandings until my hair started to turn gray.  Yet my own testimony is not based on my own learning and effort but through allowed life experiences.


Jesse F.


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"Liars are preferable to the arrogant. At least liars don't believe their own lies.

 The arrogant believe their own deceptive fantasies and even take pride in them."

--- Rebbe Yehoshuah of Ostrovtsa
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 06, 2012 - 9:46AM #13
withwonderingawe
Posts: 5,064

Apr 6, 2012 -- 1:12AM, moksha8088 wrote:


Apr 5, 2012 -- 11:28PM, withwonderingawe wrote:


Helen Mar Kimball at 14 was sealed to Joseph at her father’s request. Joseph told her “‘If you will take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation & exaltation and that of your father’s household & all of your kindred.” Some say she was manipulated by this great promised but she too became part of this Holy Order in which all the members received their second anointing so their calling and elections made sure.




Withwonderingawe, have you ever wondered about this strange route to salvation and exaltation?  This promise made to Heber Kimball, his family and all their descendants to receive these indulgences in return for their consent and Helen's acquiescence to marry Joseph Smith has always struck me as being an extremely different pathway than everyone else needs to take.


Did Joseph Smith actually have the power to grant salvation and exaltation?  Did he regard the agreement to marry this teenager as performing good works without the formality of all that ordinance stuff?




Well ya either believe he was a prophet with the power to bind on earth that which was bound in heaven or ya don’t.


I think reading through some of the stories that there was a test going on. I found this;


“"During the summer of 1841, shortly after Heber's return from England, he was introduced to the doctrine of plural marriage directly through a startling test-a sacrifice which shook his very being and challenged his faith to the ultimate. He had already sacrificed homes, possessions, friends, relatives, all worldly rewards, peace, and tranquility for the Restoration. Nothing was left to place on the altar save his life, his children, and his wife. Joseph demanded for himself what to Heber was the unthinkable, his Vilate. Totally crushed spiritually and emotionally, Heber touched neither food nor water for three days and three nights and continually sought confirmation and comfort from God." Finally, after "some kind of assurance," Heber took Vilate to the upper room of Joseph's store on Water Street. The Prophet wept at this act of faith, devotion, and obedience. Joseph had never intended to take Vilate. It was all a test." - Biography of Heber C. Kimball, Heber C. Kimball, Mormon Patriarch and Pioneer by Stanley B. Kimball, page 93.



Heber Kimball then referred to Helen as his only lamb to offer but it wasn’t going to happen if his wife didn’t agree to it and it ripped her heart out but she did it.


It seems Joseph was gathering a small handful of members around him whom he could trust absolutely.


In May of 1842 he met with 9 men and introduced the beginnings of the temple ceremony. Many of his wives had some attachment to these event.


Hyrum Smith he of course trusted completely


Brigham Young sealed his sister Fanny to Joseph, sort of impromptu.


Heber C. Kimball gave his daughter


Willard Richards sealed his sister to Joseph


Newel K. Whitney’s daughter was sealed to Joseph


George Miller, I can’t find any connection between him and Joseph except that he did begin practicing polygamy himself. But he later left the Church and followed some of the other break offs.


William Marks there is some evidence that Joseph asked for his daughter and was turned down, Marks rejected polygamy all together. He later left the Church and joined the RLDS.


William Law also claimed Joseph approached his wife and it was rejected and we all know William was instrumental in getting Joseph killed.


You’ll note that Sidney Rigdon is missing from that list, apparently he asked for Sidney’s daughter Nancy and was turned down. Joseph tried to have him removed as one of his counselors but was blocked by William Marks. Sidney also left the church even after he had seen so many great visions.


He also went to Sarah Pratt Orson’s wife and she turned him down flat. I think in her anger the Holy Spirit left her and she became entangled with John C. Bennett.
I really believe there was a dividing of the sheep from the goats going on and I don’t think he had sex with any of those women on that list. In Sept of 1843 he began adding women to this Holy Order and eventually there were 70 members.


With the new DNA testing which has been done all of this “over sexed” rhetoric has to be rethought through. Juanita Brooks in her book had him jumping in out of bed with every woman that walked passed him and a lot of what she wrote has been proven false.




Wise men still seek him.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 06, 2012 - 5:24PM #14
MMCSFOX
Posts: 1,524

WWA, there are many family stories about some of the tests those early members went through. I think that is why there were so many great happenings that many were involved in to carry them on from day to day. I do feel sorry for those who do not recognize and answer the tests we have today for they are missing so much.


Jesse F.


*


“Many things live to come and live off your plants, including bacteria, bugs, birds, and bunnies. If you don't control them, entire crops can be ruined. The result of your careful cultivation, in your garden and in your life, can be lost to predators in a short time.”


   From "12 Lessons on Life I Learned From My Garden" by Vivian Elisabeth Glyck.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 06, 2012 - 8:09PM #15
moksha8088
Posts: 4,911

Apr 6, 2012 -- 9:46AM, withwonderingawe wrote:


Juanita Brooks in her book had him jumping in out of bed with every woman that walked passed him and a lot of what she wrote has been proven false.




Juanita Brooks had Joseph being a hound dog during the Mountain Meadow Massacre? 


William Law also claimed Joseph approached his wife and it was rejected and we all know William was instrumental in getting Joseph killed.


 


As you just pointed out, Joseph propositioned a lot of wormen as part of his test.  William Law writing about Joseph's polygamy didn't set things in motions that lead to the prophet's unfortunate death, as much as the prophet's decision to order the faithful Elders of Nauvoo to smash up Mr. Law's newspaper office.  Freedom of the press was taken very seriously back then because it was part of their ideals as well as a means of finding out what was happening beyond the farm.

Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
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