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Switch to Forum Live View The Meme of Martyrdom
3 years ago  ::  Mar 27, 2012 - 9:19PM #1
Nino0814
Posts: 1,792

There are few examples of more successful memes than that of the honor of martydom or persecution in the pursuit of one's Faith.  Dying for our Faith is not something most of us thankfully will need to face, yet some Christians so honor this dedication to Faith that they are willing to exaggerate the risks, or to even encourage it.   

Here is an example of one church's attempt to implant the meme in their youth group:  www.religionnews.com/faith/clergy-and-co...

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 28, 2012 - 2:24PM #2
Roodog
Posts: 10,168

Mar 27, 2012 -- 9:19PM, Nino0814 wrote:


There are few examples of more successful memes than that of the honor of martydom or persecution in the pursuit of one's Faith.  Dying for our Faith is not something most of us thankfully will need to face, yet some Christians so honor this dedication to Faith that they are willing to exaggerate the risks, or to even encourage it.   

Here is an example of one church's attempt to implant the meme in their youth group:  www.religionnews.com/faith/clergy-and-co...





I have done two short stints on the mission field, which my church has encouraged for years and still is extending opportunity for the laity to engage in. Usually it is edifying and encouraging local believers or building a needed facility like a school or clinic. However, much of this is done in the third world where our safety is not guaranteed.


During my first trip to Mexico our vehicle was stopped by a military road block and lots of nervous soldiers were pointing loaded guns in our direction. The possibility of being shot will really make you count the cost.

For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.

St. Thomas Aquinas

If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9
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4 months ago  ::  Dec 19, 2014 - 11:20PM #3
Nino0814
Posts: 1,792

I was reading a piece written by a Christian who "leaned left" politically.  This person believed the Jesus would support his progressive causes.  I fully expect Christians to wonder what Jesus would say and think if he were today - otherwise, why bother with Christianity.  What surprises me is how radically different Christians can see Jesus.  I assumed that some got Jesus right while others got Jesus wrong, but perhaps Dawkins idea about memes better explains why we see such radically different Christian views.  


Dawkins view can be read in the link found in the initial post. He explains how cultural practices and ideas (i.e., ,memes) spread  through society in ways similar to living organisms (they cooperate with others memes to increase their likelihood of survival).


Originally Christianity was against the dominant culture and its power structure, but later aligned with it. Anglicanism and Roman Catholicism were fully aligned with the political powers of their day, but there were counter cultural movements in their churches that rejected this view.  Christianity in its purist form is able to cooperate with very different ideas, and does so to propagate itself.  That is why you have Christian Churches like TEC and Westboro Baptist.  Perhaps one is more possessd by nonChristian memes than the Christian meme, but both are "attemtps" by the Christian meme to replicate via cooperation.


Christianity + civil rights + environmentalism + social justice = TEC


Christianity + bibicalism + patriarchy + separatism = Westboro Baptist


I would appreicaite your thoughts on this idea.

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3 months ago  ::  Dec 26, 2014 - 4:17PM #4
Fangi
Posts: 310

Dec 19, 2014 -- 11:20PM, Nino0814 wrote:

I was reading a piece written by a Christian who "leaned left" politically.  This person believed the Jesus would support his progressive causes.  I fully expect Christians to wonder what Jesus would say and think if he were today - otherwise, why bother with Christianity.  What surprises me is how radically different Christians can see Jesus.  I assumed that some got Jesus right while others got Jesus wrong, but perhaps Dawkins idea about memes better explains why we see such radically different Christian views.  


Dawkins view can be read in the link found in the initial post. He explains how cultural practices and ideas (i.e., ,memes) spread  through society in ways similar to living organisms (they cooperate with others memes to increase their likelihood of survival).


Originally Christianity was against the dominant culture and its power structure, but later aligned with it. Anglicanism and Roman Catholicism were fully aligned with the political powers of their day, but there were counter cultural movements in their churches that rejected this view.  Christianity in its purist form is able to cooperate with very different ideas, and does so to propagate itself.  That is why you have Christian Churches like TEC and Westboro Baptist.  Perhaps one is more possessd by nonChristian memes than the Christian meme, but both are "attemtps" by the Christian meme to replicate via cooperation.


Christianity + civil rights + environmentalism + social justice = TEC


Christianity + bibicalism + patriarchy + separatism = Westboro Baptist


I would appreicaite your thoughts on this idea.


The TEC/Westboro divide has more to do with sociology and aligning with the group one is most comfortable in rather than following a Christian meme.  When I wonder what Jesus would think and say if he were here today, I think he would find the TEC and Westboro approaches equally off-putting... on the Westboro side for rejecting and abusing a (large) segment of the population (LGBT+), and on the TEC side for promoting particuar political viewpoints and defending them with a religious fervor to the point that they exclude and degrade those who have other opinions-- another fairly large group of people.  


This has been more my experience (it might not be this way everywhere!)


strongly promoting social change at the expense of dividing people along race, gender, and sexual orientation lines + environmentalism without concern for people's economic conditions + particular forms of social justice + Christianity + conviction that God supports their (progressive) views = TEC


Civil rights, focused on reaching accross boundaries that divide us to understand/move forward + moderate environmentalism + most social justice + Christianity = ????


Christianity, literal interpretation of the Bible + dividing people along race, gender, and sexual orientation lines to judge them + conviction that God promotes their (conservative) views = Westboro



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3 months ago  ::  Dec 27, 2014 - 7:36PM #5
Nino0814
Posts: 1,792

Dec 26, 2014 -- 4:17PM, Fangi wrote:

The TEC/Westboro divide has more to do with sociology and aligning with the group one is most comfortable in rather than following a Christian meme.  When I wonder what Jesus would think and say if he were here today, I think he would find the TEC and Westboro approaches equally off-putting... on the Westboro side for rejecting and abusing a (large) segment of the population (LGBT+), and on the TEC side for promoting particuar political viewpoints and defending them with a religious fervor to the point that they exclude and degrade those who have other opinions-- another fairly large group of people.  


This has been more my experience (it might not be this way everywhere!)


strongly promoting social change at the expense of dividing people along race, gender, and sexual orientation lines + environmentalism without concern for people's economic conditions + particular forms of social justice + Christianity + conviction that God supports their (progressive) views = TEC


Civil rights, focused on reaching accross boundaries that divide us to understand/move forward + moderate environmentalism + most social justice + Christianity = ????


Christianity, literal interpretation of the Bible + dividing people along race, gender, and sexual orientation lines to judge them + conviction that God promotes their (conservative) views = Westboro




Hi Fangi,


I recently read "The Invention of Wings", Sue Monk Kidd's novel based on the lives of the two abolitionist sisters, Sarah and Angelina Grimke, who rejected the Episcopal Church in South Carolina with its support of slavery.  They later become affilited with the Quakers, but that relationship was strained at times due to the sisters positions in support of equality of the races (something Quakers did not fully support) and the equality of women.   


Christianity is pliable, which enables it to flourish is various culture contexts.  TEC is an amalgamation of Christianity and many other cultural memes.  Once it was gave great cultural support to the socially established.  Today it sides with the progressive politics as you noted.



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