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3 years ago  ::  Feb 16, 2012 - 11:17AM #61
Dutch777
Posts: 9,129

[/quote]

No Dutch, you need to obey the First Commandment.[/quote]


www.indybay.org/uploads/2011/08/07/bullshit.jpg


Roo, you just don't get it.  This is not a matter of doctrine and discipline; the federal govt. is not the executive instrument of churches.  This is a matter of Constitutional Law.


If that concept --- you know, that "Founding Fathers" thingie the Republicans are always dragging into the national dialogue --- the  one of separation of church and state, doesn't resonate with you, then perhaps another country which supports a state church is more compatable with your ethos.


Most of us decline having a Christian version of Sharia Law imposed upon us.  That's why Americans support Obama's stand against the RCC bps. 66% to 26%.   BTW, in RC countries where the RCC bps. strongly influence the Govt., free churches such as yours are marginalized and  placed at disadvantage.

The Path
To Moon Lake
Doesn't Go
There.

So Walk
Your own Dharma*Path
And Be
Mindful

Dutch
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 16, 2012 - 11:19AM #62
GRobit625
Posts: 2,000

There are so many other things that get funed by federal dollars that are supposed to be detestable, but like the hypocrites they are, they still take the cash. Never mind capital punishment and war..lets ALL scream because of a pill. Hypocrites the whole lot of them. I wish one politian, ONE politian would stand up and say stop taking federal benefits and then you can complain all you want.

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 16, 2012 - 11:31AM #63
Roodog
Posts: 10,168

Feb 16, 2012 -- 11:00AM, GRobit625 wrote:


Feb 16, 2012 -- 10:44AM, Roodog wrote:


The matter here is not any given church trying to take control of this Government, but rather it is a matter of the Government  trying to coerce any given religion to act against it's established doctrinal or moral standard. To do this is despotic, and arrogant on the Government's part, the Government tries to overide what the religion considers to be God's will and that is rank idolatry. The Government becomes god.


I am sure if the Government tried to feed Jews and Muslims pork or force Quakers and Mennonites to serve in combat you all would be singing a different tune.





I think all churches, including ours, shouldn't receive any federal funding or tax free perks. If they did that, maybe the RCC and others would have a stronger case. This is why ordinary people don't give a crap about their whining and crying. You accept federal perks, you go by federal rules. Or else you op out. Many churches, those who aren't necessarily under any denomination do just that.




Which Federal perks are you talking about? Tax exemption?
Do you think that taxing the churches would help? The power to tax is the power to destroy.


No religion or charity should be taxed.Period.


 

For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.

St. Thomas Aquinas

If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 16, 2012 - 11:36AM #64
GRobit625
Posts: 2,000

Feb 16, 2012 -- 11:31AM, Roodog wrote:


Feb 16, 2012 -- 11:00AM, GRobit625 wrote:


Feb 16, 2012 -- 10:44AM, Roodog wrote:


The matter here is not any given church trying to take control of this Government, but rather it is a matter of the Government  trying to coerce any given religion to act against it's established doctrinal or moral standard. To do this is despotic, and arrogant on the Government's part, the Government tries to overide what the religion considers to be God's will and that is rank idolatry. The Government becomes god.


I am sure if the Government tried to feed Jews and Muslims pork or force Quakers and Mennonites to serve in combat you all would be singing a different tune.





I think all churches, including ours, shouldn't receive any federal funding or tax free perks. If they did that, maybe the RCC and others would have a stronger case. This is why ordinary people don't give a crap about their whining and crying. You accept federal perks, you go by federal rules. Or else you op out. Many churches, those who aren't necessarily under any denomination do just that.





Do you think that taxing the churches would help? The power to tax is the power to destroy.





I think until the RCC and other churches who support them scream about war and capital punishment as loud as they do about a pill, they should STFU and refuse federal benifits. Maybe their words would carry more weight. That's what I'm saying.

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 16, 2012 - 11:38AM #65
GRobit625
Posts: 2,000

Why shouldn't any Church be taxed? Keep in mind I'm a member of TEC and I'm including TEC in this. I'm not a random atheist calling for this but a Christian.


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3 years ago  ::  Feb 16, 2012 - 11:42AM #66
GRobit625
Posts: 2,000

Keep in mind, as much as I disagree about some of the things that go on in this country on all fronts, this is what happens when you get in bed with the government. Times are changing, not nessessary for the better but that's the thing. Churches de facto got in bed with the government because of 501 c 3.

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 16, 2012 - 11:42AM #67
Roodog
Posts: 10,168

Feb 16, 2012 -- 11:17AM, Dutch777 wrote:




No Dutch, you need to obey the First Commandment.




www.indybay.org/uploads/2011/08/07/bullshit.jpg


Roo, you just don't get it.  This is not a matter of doctrine and discipline; the federal govt. is not the executive instrument of churches.  This is a matter of Constitutional Law.


If that concept --- you know, that "Founding Fathers" thingie the Republicans are always dragging into the national dialogue --- the  one of separation of church and state, doesn't resonate with you, then perhaps another country which supports a state church is more compatable with your ethos.


Most of us decline having a Christian version of Sharia Law imposed upon us.  That's why Americans support Obama's stand against the RCC bps. 66% to 26%.   BTW, in RC countries where the RCC bps. strongly influence the Govt., free churches such as yours are marginalized and  placed at disadvantage.





The First Amendment guarantees Freedom OF Religion, not Freedom from Religion.


 The free exercise of any given religion is enshrined here.  What we are talking about here is not criminal activity but legitimate concerns of faith and morals here.  If the Government gets by with forcing the RCC to pay for contraceptives, they may try  to force the Baptist Church to hire and ordain homosexuals. We will close our doors and meet in secret before we do that.

For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.

St. Thomas Aquinas

If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 16, 2012 - 1:29PM #68
JimRigas
Posts: 2,950

 If the Government gets by with forcing the RCC to pay for contraceptives,


Why should it not pay for contraceptives?  After all it is not taxed, so it does not have to pay to take care of all the unwanted children in broken and impoversished families. 


Furthermore I see that MOST of its membership thinks contraceptives are good for it.  Why not for the rest of country? 

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 16, 2012 - 1:49PM #69
GRobit625
Posts: 2,000

Robert Mugabe is the president of Zimbabwe, a murderous tyrant. He is also a Roman Catholic. In the United States however, Roman Catholic bishops are screaming to high heaven about birth control but they are SILENT about that tyrant. Not a word from B-16.....But they scream at RC politians about having political views contrary to their doctrine??? The RCC is full of hypocrites, their leadership AND their members.

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 16, 2012 - 3:04PM #70
Dutch777
Posts: 9,129

[/quote]

The First Amendment guarantees Freedom OF Religion, not Freedom from Religion.


Wrong; you'd really better study constitutional history.


The 1st. Amendment guarantees freedom of religion in that there is NO established church and the free exercise of religion is guaranteed provided that the laws of the land are not violated by that free exercise.  This has already been explained ad nauseum.


It also guarantees freedom FROM religion in that no-one shall be subjected to a church or be forced to join, support or engage any religious entity or submit to  religious exercises against that person's will.


 The free exercise of any given religion is enshrined here.  What we are talking about here is not criminal activity but legitimate concerns of faith and morals here.


Again, this has already been explained to you --- what some religions consider their free exercise is criminal: e.g.  with-holding transfusions and other medical care from minors as a religious belief and practice.  Other examples have been given which I will not repeat.


 If the Government gets by with forcing the RCC to pay for contraceptives, they may try  to force the Baptist Church to hire and ordain homosexuals. We will close our doors and meet in secret before we do that.


Uh --- yeah --- Uncle Sam might also force Baptists to fly to Mars in space-ships, but don't count on that either.  Reductio ad absurdum gets so tedious.


[/quote]


The Path
To Moon Lake
Doesn't Go
There.

So Walk
Your own Dharma*Path
And Be
Mindful

Dutch
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