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Mormonism Obsessed with Christ
4 months ago  ::  Jan 31, 2012 - 8:54PM #10
BillThinks4Himself
Posts: 2,990

Jan 29, 2012 -- 6:34PM, brent7 wrote:

And here I thought mormonism was obsessed with Mormon - or at least Joseph Smith.


Did you really?


Mormon isn't a big part of "Mormonism."  Mormon is a figure in the Book of Mormon.  Mormon was supposed to have kept certain records and passed them on to his son, Moroni.  That's why the book was called "The Book of Mormon."


Joseph Smith never claimed that Mormon had appeared to him.  There is a book, in the Book of Mormon, written by Mormon, which is called "The Book of Mormon."  It's a fairly short book.  Most of it dwells on the story of what happened to the Nephites.


As for Joseph Smith, Mormons do talk a lot about him, because he's the one who started the faith.  Without Joseph Smith, there would be no Book of Mormon, no LDS Church and no system of belief and worship.  Joseph Smith is huge, in terms of the founding of the LDS Church.


But when it comes to actual life and worship, Joseph Smith really doesn't even come up on the radar.  He's important, in terms of the origin story, and he cast a huge influence upon Mormon theology and church governance.  On the other hand, Mormons aren't baptized in the name of Joseph Smith.  They aren't confirmed in the name of Joseph Smith.  There's no Joseph Smith moment in the blessing and passing of the sacrament, the Mormon service similar to the Catholic mass.  Mormons don't pray to Joseph Smith.  They don't look to Joseph Smith for a forgiveness of their sins.  Joseph Smith is not a member of the Godhead of Father, Son and Holy Ghost.


Like Mormon, Joseph Smith holds an important place in the story of Mormonism, but when it comes to actual Mormon life, he's not the cornerstone of the faith.

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4 months ago  ::  Jan 30, 2012 - 7:57AM #9
Acts 28:22
Posts: 1,225

Jan 29, 2012 -- 6:34PM, brent7 wrote:


And here I thought mormonism was obsessed with Mormon - or at least Joseph Smith.



Perhaps you should spend  less time reading the words of our detractors.

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4 months ago  ::  Jan 29, 2012 - 6:34PM #8
brent7
Posts: 45

And here I thought mormonism was obsessed with Mormon - or at least Joseph Smith.

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4 months ago  ::  Jan 24, 2012 - 1:24AM #7
BillThinks4Himself
Posts: 2,990

Good point, Jesse.  What I meant was that articles are more popular when they say things that are perceived as flattery.


But as the old saying goes, one must be careful what one wishes for.


There's a subtle jab behind the "Mormons are obsessed with Christ" argument.  While the author appears to argue that the Book of Mormon is the most Christ-centered book on the planet, this guy's fascination with Mormons has nothing to do with any possibility that the guy thinks the Mormons may be right.  If anything, he quietly thinks the Book of Mormon is bogus.


Why?


The Book of Mormon provides "Another Testament of Jesus Christ," but as the man points out, The Book of Mormon is a little too interested in Jesus Christ.


How can that be?  


Most of the Book of Mormon takes place in anticipation of Jesus Christ's birth.  In that sense it's Another [Old] Testament.  But unlike the Old Testament, it's not a volume of scripture mined by New Testament believers for figurative connections to Christ.  If anything, it's quite explicit.  It abounds with details about this yet-to-be-born savior of the world.  Where Old Testament religion focused most of its efforts on the status of Israel, the Book of Mormon goes to great lengths to discuss all kinds of Christ-related information.  Where prophets like Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel spoke allegorically, the messages of Lehi, Nephi and Abinadi are so obvious that there's no room for interpretation at all.  


It's in that sense that Mormons are bigger Christians than most groups (maybe even him) because they actually believe the Christian message with a degree of literalism and acceptance that exceeds that of the average Christian, and certainly him.


Mormons accept Christ with an enthusiasm reminiscent of a big, friendly dog.  For people like the author, such enthusiasm may not be warranted if the New Testament consists of one group's attempt to mine the Old Testament for anything supporting New Testament claims.  Such attempts, while artful, have not been without controversy.


There are a fair number of scholars who would argue that the Old Testament doesn't really say anything about Jesus, that the New Testament Christians simply interpreted Hebrew passages to say what they, the early Christians, wanted to hear.


In the case of the Book of Mormon, it's not a matter of having faith that your particular spin on the  Old Testament is doctrinal.  For Mormons, it's about having faith that your book - which needs no spin to point to Christ - is true.


One might even argue that details have their own sedimentation patterns.  Stories, like the fossil record, tend to start out simple and get more detailed the newer they are.  In biology, you'd call it evolution; in literature, you'd call it embellishment.


He likes that word, embellishment.


The suggestion, left pregnant with possibility, is that the Book of Mormon's obsession with details makes it more likely something that came later rather than earlier.


The Book of Mormon, on the other hand, is predicated on an opposite set of assumptions: That details are actually lost in time.  To Mormons, while it's always possible for someone to embellish an earlier account, it's also possible for the "plain and precious truths" to be lost and in need of a "restoration."


The seduction of the writer comes from getting Mormons to make a mental shift from a restorationist mindset to a liberal protestant point of view.  It's a bit like the second- and third-Isaiah problem.  Isaiah casts doubt on the validity of the Book of Mormon, but only if you don't believe in Isaiah.  If you think one Isaiah didn't write "Isaiah," then the Book of Mormon's failure to make such distinctions - and its reference to an unbroken Isaiah (with a single author) is telling.


In essence, the first folks to find fault with the Book of Mormon are not Bible believers but Bible skeptics.  The Book of Mormon has to be false because it makes the mistake of believing too much in the Bible.  Stupid Mormons.


It's a cynical argument, one that blames Mormons for believing too much in a Bible, while also arguing that they read it the wrong way.  

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4 months ago  ::  Jan 22, 2012 - 11:34PM #6
MMCSFOX
Posts: 990

Bill posted:


“Undoubtedly, this guy's article is interesting to Latter-day Saints because it seems to flatter the faith.”


Jesse  notes:


I am not too sure he meant to flatter the faith. See the extract below.


 The Book of Mormon has to be one of the most lackluster of all the great works of literature”


“but Smith went one big step further.”


Just two Little subtle innuendos. 


Jesse F.

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4 months ago  ::  Jan 22, 2012 - 8:50PM #5
BillThinks4Himself
Posts: 2,990

You know that old saying - "Be careful what you wish for; you might just get it"?  Well, Mormons would be well advised to be careful what they link or repost.  Undoubtedly, this guy's article is interesting to Latter-day Saints because it seems to flatter the faith.  At the very least, it calls for tolerance toward Mormons.  Coming close to an argument I've made for years - that believing more or different things about Jesus doesn't mean somebody worship s a "different" Jesus - he draws a terrific analogy: What if someone came to your grandfather's funeral and brought up stories about him you'd never heard before?  Would you throw that person out?  If Mormons believe in Jesus, but tell stories about him no other Christians find credible, is it really reasonable to say that Mormons don't believe in Jesus?


On the flipside, there are compliments you're better off without.  Here's one in particular:

Mormonism is obsessed with Christ, and everything that it teaches is meant to awaken, encourage, and expand faith in him. It adds to the plural but coherent portrait of Jesus that emerges from the four gospels in a way, I am convinced, that does not significantly damage or deface that portrait.

I came to this conclusion when I read through the Book of Mormon for the first time . . . .  When I actually read this book, however, I was utterly surprised. I was not moved, mind you. The Book of Mormon has to be one of the most lackluster of all the great works of literature that have inspired enduring religious movements. Yet it is dull precisely because it is all about Jesus. There are many characters in this book, but they change as little as the plot. Nobody stands out but him. . . . . And not just Jesus: A whole gospel in all of its theological details—right down to debates about baptism, the relationship of law to grace, and the problem of divine foreknowledge—is taught to the people of the New World centuries before Jesus was even born.

Christians have long interpreted the Old Testament in terms of the New—reading Christ between the lines, so to speak—but Smith went one big step further. He replaced the figurative with the figure himself . . . . 

Long before his birth in Bethlehem, Jesus was eager to reveal the most specific details of his future life and ministry . . . .


Does anyone see what he's saying?

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4 months ago  ::  Jan 22, 2012 - 6:10PM #4
moksha8088
Posts: 4,174

Fortunately, we can have our beliefs and still be obsessed with other things.  Kebecer and Akame can both be religious and still be obsessed with either all things French and lawn mower engine copters.


 Wink

Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
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4 months ago  ::  Jan 22, 2012 - 11:56AM #3
Acts 28:22
Posts: 1,225

Jan 21, 2012 -- 9:15PM, moksha8088 wrote:


Isn't our prime obsession focused on Mitt Romney right now?



Watchout moksha, someone on the Discuss Smear Mormonism forum will insist we belive Mitt IS the Christ.

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5 months ago  ::  Jan 21, 2012 - 9:15PM #2
moksha8088
Posts: 4,174

Isn't our prime obsession focused on Mitt Romney right now?

Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
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5 months ago  ::  Jan 21, 2012 - 5:39AM #1
Acts 28:22
Posts: 1,225
Mormonism Obsessed with Christ

An unusual article written by Stephen H Webb, a professor of religion and philosophy.
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