FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #35

REVELATION 20:10

A frequently asked question regarding Revelation 20:10

"How can there only be one age after the millennium when the devil, at the end of the thousand years, is to be tormented unto ages of ages?"

Response by James Coram.

"The problem here is a loose usage of terms. The thousand years of the saint's reign does not constitute the entirety of the coming epochal eon or duration. The two do not end at the same time.

The period of time covered by the word eon depends upon the context. The expression "for the eon" does not necessarily include the entirety of the eon intended. While some seem to think that it must include the whole of a given eon, on the contrary, when an action occurs in an eon, it usually refers only to the rest of it. Our Lord spoke to the barren fig tree, "No longer, by any means, may fruit be coming from you for the eon." Did He forbid fruit from the deluge to His coming? The tree was not even planted until a thousand years after the flood, and it did produce fruit in this eon, but was to do so no longer (Matt. 21:19; Mark 11:14; John 13:8; 1Cor. 8:13).

So also in the plural. "For the eons" does not denote the whole of them. Christ shall reign over the house of Jacob "for the eons," yet only two of them will be left when the kingdom commences (Luke 1:33).
 
The same is true of the phrase "for the eons of the eons." We read that the saints will be reigning for the eons of the eons (Rev. 22:5). But some of these saints will not be alive at the commencement of the millennial eon. We cannot delay this eon after the advent of the Messiah. Yet Daniel and the dead circumcision saints are not raised until seventy-five days later. Part of the eon will be past when they commence to reign with Him the thousand years (Rev. 20:6).
 
The same usage is found with reference to the torment of the Adversary. Although the wild beast and the false prophet have been in the lake of fire a thousand years before him (Rev. 19:20), only one phrase is used for both: "the eons of the eons (Rev. 20:10). At that juncture, how much of that eon still remains, we do not know. But no matter how little, so it was that our Lord and His apostles spoke, and we should follow His example. This usage in Rev. 20:10 of the word eon does not affect its meaning. The limitations are in the context, not in the word.

If you look in the Concordant Version of Rev 20:7  please look at the vertical line in front of "finished." "And whenever the thousand years should be finished, Satan will be loosed out of his jail." You could say: whenever the thousand years should be finishing . . . ." So Satan is cast into the lake of fire when the thousand years is finishing and through the new earth eon thus comprising the eons of the eons.
 "And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." Revelation 20:10. Those who hold to the theory of "annihilation" contend that Satan is consumed in the lake of fire, ceasing to exist before the new earth begins. Yet the text is plain: he will be tormented during TWO eons; what remains of the "millennial" eon (which lasts a little over 1,000 years), and the final eon on the new earth. Likewise, we are told of those who "shall be reigning for the eons of the eons." Rev. 22:5. That they shall be reigning on the new earth is apparent- Rev. 21:24. Likewise, Satan will be alive (and in torment) during the final eon.
 
Mistranslating "eons of the eons" as "forever and ever" solves nothing; it only feeds the vile theory of eternal torment, while generating considerable confusion. As for those vessels of indignation who are cast into the lake of fire near the end of the millennial eon, for them that lake is the second death. Yet they are not annihilated; their part is in that lake during the final eon- Rev. 21:8. They are not described as "nonexistent", rather, they are described as being outside the holy city- Rev. 22:15. They will be dead until death is abolished at the consummation of the eons."

FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #37

THE GRAND ASSERTION – Don Hicks 

ALL OF MANKIND WAS DECLARED RIGHTEOUS BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST AND ALL OF MANKIND WILL COME TO BELIEVE IN JESUS AS LORD AND GOD AS SAVIOR FOLLOWING THE NECESSARY DISCIPLINE OF THE CONSUMING PURIFYING FIRE OF GOD. 

Mal 3:2b "For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap;” 

SUB-ASSERTION #1 

MANKIND WAS DECLARED RIGHTEOUS BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST HAVING BEEN RECONCILED TO GOD BY HIS DEATH 

Rom 5:6-10 “For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died

for the ungodly.  But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while

we were still sinners, Christ died for us.  Much more then, because we have

now been declared righteous by his blood, we will be saved through him from

God's wrath.  For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God

through the death of his Son, how much more, since we have been reconciled,

will we be saved by his life?

Note that a summary of these verses could be the following:

While we were helpless ungodly sinners who were His enemies, Christ died

for us, declared us righteous by his blood, will save us from God’s wrath,

and  reconciled  us to God through His death.

Helpless ungodly sinners who were enemies of God and Christ may be words

written to those of Rome who were currently believers, but here Paul is

obviously referencing their status with God prior to their becoming

believers.  Therefore the being reconciled to God and declared righteous

occurred prior to belief since these descriptions are hardly of believers.

At the foot of the cross were many helpless ungodly sinners who were the

enemies of Jesus, yet He said, “Father forgive them for they don’t know

what they are doing”.  I believe the Father was in agreement with this

prayer of Jesus and so their sins were or will be forgiven on the merits of

Jesus alone.  Mankind was declared righteous, or justified on that day.

Paul reinforces the fact of being declared righteous was for all mankind a

few verses later in Rom 5:18, “Consequently, just as one offense resulted

in condemnation for everyone, so one act of righteousness results in

justification and life for everyone.” 

SUB-ASSERTION #2 

NO “PUNISHMENT”, “DESTRUCTION”, “PERISHING”, “LOSTNESS” IS ETERNAL; RATHER GOD’S “PUNISHMENTS” OR “DESTRUCTION” ARE CORRECTIVE IN NATURE 

 Now, we do need His discipline to make us fit for His kingdom. This

discipline will not be “eternal”, but it will be “aeonian or eonian”, the

English equivalents of the Greek “aionios”.  “Aeonian” punishment as

referred to in Mt. 25:46, one of the proof texts for those who hold to the

heresy of the eternal torment of non-believers, is the type of correction

that God will administer to the unbeliever.  The noun being modified by

aeonian is the word punishment, which is the Greek “kolasis” which has been

used in reference to “pruning” a plant for the purpose of better

production. “Kolasis” punishment is the corrective type, whereas, “timoria”

punishment is the retributive type.  The “aeonian” life in Mt. 25:46 is the

life given to the believer by God beginning at the point of belief.  This

is that life we enjoy as believers which blesses us now as we deal with

this physical life and also blesses us with the promise of immortality and

therefore everlasting communion with our Father.

Aeonian destruction as referenced in 2 Thess. 1:7-9, “…who will be punished

with aeonian destruction from the presence of the Lord,…”, is the kind of

destruction necessary for God to administer for the fulfillment of His

purposes.  Destruction is equivalent to death in that it is “from the

presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power”.  Jesus was

“destroyed” at the cross, but as in His case, so with all cases of

destruction or death, there is no sense of “eternal” associated with them

as Jesus rose to life and “the last enemy to be eliminated will be death”.

The “lost” sheep, coin, and son of Luke 15 referred to a condition that did

not last forever.  The word “lost” is the translation of the Greek

“apollumi”, from which we have the translations lose, lost, perish,

destroy, etc.  As we can see in Luke 15, the sheep, coin, and son were only

“lost” until they were found.  This harmonizes with the fact that Jesus

said He came to “seek and save the lost”.

Note that the following verse tells us that there is a special benefit for

becoming a believer now, but that God will save all of the “lost”

unbelievers also.  1Tim 4:10 “For to this end we toil and strive, because

we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men,

especially of those who believe.”  The Greek word that got translated

“especially” here is “malista”.  Checking its usage in other verses makes

it clear that especially is a good choice for English since it does refer

to extra special attention to something, but not to the exclusion of other

items mentioned in the context.

The Hebrew word “olam” has as its Greek equivalents “aion” and “aionios” in

the Septuagint.  An analysis of the approximately 440 occurrences of olam

in the Old Testament suggests that it means a period of time without the

end in sight but not necessarily “eternal”, or “everlasting” or “forever”,

if it should ever be.  Olam was only 3 days in the case of Jonah’s duration

in the fish, even though the “traditional” translation has been “forever”.

Also, the length of time a person would be the slave has been referred to

as “forever”, which we know is literally only for their physical lifetime.

Some versions never use eternal, everlasting, or forever for olam.  Have

you noticed some versions use the phrase “forever and ever”.  Have you ever

given thought to the absurdity of adding the words “and ever” after you

have already said forever?  What’s more than forever?  That’s like saying

something lasts for an eternity and then for another eternity.  The

absurdity of this should add to our awareness of the bias of those

translators who consistently translate olam, aion, and aionios as eternal,

everlasting, forever, or the absurd “forever and ever” phrase.

An analysis of the word “hell” is quite revealing.  Jesus used the word

“geena” or “hades” and tradition (KJV, Catholic church, etc.) has had the

ignorant  audacity to use this Anglo-Saxon word “hell”, which means

“unseen” (a-des), corresponding to the Hebrew “sheol” and attach to it a

meaning out of pagan mythology of a place of eternal torment.  Dr. Thomas

Thayer in his book “The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless

Punishment” traces this myth of eternal torment that became associated with

the word hell to ancient Egypt.  Geena (sometimes Gehenna) was the Valley

of Hinnom which became a garbage dump on the outskirts of Jerusalem where

carcasses of criminals were burned which Jesus metaphorically referenced as

a future potential punishment with no sense of “eternal” punishment

inherent in its meaning.  This refers to aeonian punishment which again is

God’s corrective punishment.  Gehenna should have been left untranslated

because it is a geographical location that the Jews of Jesus’ audience knew

exactly what he was referring to.  Hades should have also been left

untranslated or translated as “unseen” or “the grave” as some versions do,

as Hades definitely has no inherent punishment connotation.  There are a

number of versions that don’t use the word “hell” even once, realizing the

bad rap the word has gotten with the erroneous connotation. 

SUB-ASSERTION #3

ALL HUMANITY WILL COME TO BELIEVE IN GOD AND WILL WORSHIP HIM SOONER OR LATER 

The following are 5 witnesses (scriptures) from 4 of God's servants: DAVID, ISAIAH, PAUL, and JOHN. NOTE:  Nowhere in the Word do we have any evidence that one must come to belief in this lifetime, which is another myth of man; contrariwise, we have much evidence in the following verses and many others that some will only come to belief after their physical death.
 
At this point some might think of the Rich Man and Lazarus parable, Matt. 13:34. Parables must be discerned spiritually as they are not to be taken literally since they are fictional stories to convey a spiritual message.  Consider this, Rich Man = Jews and Lazarus = Gentiles and the spiritual message is that the Jews will be disciplined for their attitude toward and treatment of the Gentiles. Keep in mind that belief is granted by God in His time not in man's.
 
God grants belief to some in this lifetime and others after their physical death. The myth that one must come to belief in this lifetime is something man dreamed up or more than likely got from the pagans and added to his traditions, but God's word does not speak of it. John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." Phi 1:29  "For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake."
 
THE MASTER PLAN OF THE MASTER COULD BE SUMMED UP IN A COMPREHENSIVE SUMMARY OF HIS WORD AS FOLLOWS AS ATTESTED BY MANY WITNESSES. "ALL IS OUT OF ME AND ALL WILL COME BACK TO ME." --- GOD Rom 11:36  For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory for the ages. Amen. 1Co 15:28  When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
 
GOD WILL BE ALL IN ALL = GOD WILL BE EVERYTHING TO EVERYONE OUR SPIRIT CAME OUT OF GOD AND WILL RETURN TO GOD DAVID was inspired to write: Psalms 22:27-28 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations ISAIAH was inspired to write: Isa 45:23  By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.' Isa 45:24  "Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength; to him shall come and be ashamed all who were incensed against him. 

PAUL was inspired to write: Phi 2:10-11  "…so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow— in heaven and on earth and under the earth — and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." Rom 14:11  For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow to me, and every tongue will give praise to God." JOHN was inspired to record: Rev 5:13 "And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might for the ages of the ages!"
 
SINCE AFTER A CERTAIN TIME DEATH WILL CEASE TO BE, LEAVING ONLY LIFE AND HENCE NO MORE SEPARATION BETWEEN GOD AND MAN, ALL OF THESE WITNESSES CAN TESTIFY TO THE SAME THING:
NOTE: The feeble attempt to downplay this worshipping, bowing, and confessing as somehow "forced", is born out of bias for eternal torment. Note particularly in Phil. 2:11 the phrase "to the glory of God the Father".  It is obviously not giving God glory to say Jesus is Lord without meaning it and you might also recall what Paul said about saying that Jesus is Lord, that "…no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit."(1 Cor. 12:3b)
 
EVERY CREATED BEING WILL SOME DAY PRAISE AND GLORIFY GOD

FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #39

THE FOLLOWING IS BY BRIAN ON CITY-DATA CHRISTIAN FORUM

It is an “0ff-the-cuff” writing that is so good I strongly feel it is worth sharing!! 

“pcamps has been very scripturally bringing us back to the fact that God is not holding men's sins against them. Can you believe it? Can God just forgive people freely? Is that fair? Is that "just??"

Well, it's not only fair. It's GRACE!!

Now, from this link here: Sovereignty Scriptures
I was truly blessed this morning.
Here's what I feel the LORD was showing me this morning, verse-by-verse:

Mt. 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Now many refers to the whole world. Just as the "many" in Romans 5 refers to all mankind, so here too, many are indeed called by God, in God's time. However, only a few are chosen in this life (such as Paul the apostle) to declare His Grace and His Glory to the world.

Jn. 12:39-40 For this cause they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, "He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart; lest they see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted, and I heal them."

When God makes the sinner to hear His word, He causes the man to be converted and healed. Without this intervention of God directly in a person's life, there can be no healing and conversion. God does it all, in His time. When one person is "saved," that's God at work. If a person is "not saved," it's simply that God is not yet doing work in that person.

Acts 3:26 ...and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways.

Again, it is GOD who TURNS us AWAY from our sin. He does it in His time. It is an active work on His part, and until He works in the individual, that person can do nothing.

Rom. 5:20 And the law came in that the transgression might increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more.

See that? God added the Law on purpose, in order to increase the transgression. Do you believe that God is for us? If you do, then you must know by now that God increased transgression, in order that His grace would supercede it. It's all GOD's doing!! Praise God!
Let's continue:

Rom. 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Here again we see clearly, that justification is God's gift, brought in by His Own Hand, and has been extended to ALL mankind. That includes Hitler and Bundy, like it or not!

Rom. 9:21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honor, and another for dishonor?
Rom. 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
Rom. 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

Yes, God made vessels of wrath. But He doesn't show His wrath on them, but brings them unto salvation by grace, according to His timing.

11:32 For God has shut up all men in disobedience that He may show mercy to all.

Here is God's final plan. He has made all people sinners, in order to have mercy upon them all! His grace is what saves us, not any works we have done. It is G-R-A-C-E which He bestows upon each sinner, one-by-one, reviving each one as He sees fit!

Grace means that man has no part in it whatsoever. Grace means that, one day, God comes to you and draws you unto Him, giving you conversion and healing. It is by grace that we are saved. As He called Saul, so He will do to each one, in His own time.

Praise God!!
I hope someone out there can hear this!!

Blessings,
brian 

A little more on grace:

Jesus told His disciples that no one would be able to come to Him without the Father's drawing power. (Like a spiritual tractor beam..)

ET denys this. ET says that man can draw himself to God at any time. But that is not scriptural. Grace means that it is God's doing, not man's. Here's more:

Quote:

God purposely opens the eyes of some people, and blinds other people. Why? To show His Grace in His time!

Quote:

Here again, Jesus shows us plainly that it is the decision of the Father and the Son, not man.

Quote:

Question: Have you repented and been forgiven?? If yes, then you must know that it was GOD who made you to understand it. Men who have not been drawn yet do not understand that they have been forgiven! Hallelujah! BUT, when the Father DRAWS you, He spontaneously converts and forgives and heals you!! It is HIS doing, not man's. This is what is so important to understand. Otherwise, you cannot understand what is meant by God's grace.

Quote:

Does the Father "grant" it to everyone? Yes, but not at the same time! That's why some are saved now. "Many are called, but few are chosen." That doesn't mean that most are rejected! That means that a few are chosen in this life. But all are called eventually.

Quote:

Here's the promise! Jesus will indeed draw all men. Some now, the rest later. Count on it!

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Does Jesus have authority over all mankind? YES, and He knows how to use it to our advantage, folks! It's called GRACE!

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Did God do something here without man's permission?!? YES! He BLESSED us by turning us from our wickedness!
Does that include Ted Bundy?? YES! (But Bundy didn't know it, poor fellow.. But by now he probably already knows it! )

THAT is God's GRACE. He reveals His Power to us individually, according to when He so chooses. Individually. And when He does, we are set free!

Quote:

Repentance IS GRANTED, NOT CHOSEN. By GRACE we are saved. God's decision, NOT ours!

Quote:

and this:

Quote:

Now do you see it???? Oh, I do hope so!!!

Blessings of God's grace to all!!!
Brian 

Men are afraid of God. And death.

Why?

Because they haven't yet been shown by the Father that they have been blessed with Life! And when He draws them to Himself, they will automatically convert and be revived from the dead! All this, by God's grace!

Jesus told the centurion that he would be "thrust down to hell." Was he? I believe he was. But not in the afterlife, but while on Earth, when he saw people receiving God's grace to know Life! What Life? Eternal Life? It is a quality of life. And others were receiving it, and he was tormented because he was not yet drawn by the Father.

But when the Father decides to draw him individually, he will spontaneously repent, be healed and revived into that same Eternal Life.

All according to God's grace.

May God's grace touch each of us today!”
brian

FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #41

THE MANY 

Some ask, Why does it say "the many" instead of "all" in Roman 5:19?

This is because the one disobedient man (Adam), and the One righteous Man (Christ) are put in a class by themselves. They are in contrast with "the many."

We may put it as follows:
The one disobedient man plus "the many" equals all mankind made sinners.
The One obedient Man plus "the many" equals all mankind made righteous.

That "the one" plus "the many" made sinners includes all mankind no one will deny.

Even so, "the One" plus "the many" made righteous is all-inclusive and guarantees the salvation of all mankind.