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Switch to Forum Live View Belgian Catholic Priests' Reform Manifesto
2 years ago  ::  Dec 25, 2011 - 9:44PM #1
Nino0814
Posts: 1,655
The crisis in the RC Church in Belgium has caused a few priests to issue a call to reform that is bolder than Luther's.  Mass without priests?  IMO this is too radical.   

ncronline.org/news/global/belgian-cathol...


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2 years ago  ::  Dec 26, 2011 - 11:48AM #2
Dutch777
Posts: 9,056

Nino,


I fully believe in the "priesthood of all believers".  One becomes a priest per baptism; there are no "lay" members in the Body of Christ; only priests.


Ordination is the seal of approval granted by the institutional church that the candidate has been properly vetted, trained, spiritually directed, and is capable of serving as presider of the eucharist, pastor of the congregation, and cure of souls.  The "priesting", however, comes through baptism.


In concept, I have no problem with the lay presidency of the holy eucharist.  My problem sits at the functional level.  It is incompatable with our Anglican heritage and traditions.  It also could lead to religious anarchy unless assiduously regulated.


This is a Belgian RCC issue, however.  The priests' proposals are legitimate in a crisis situation, which European churches currently are in.  This is the matter: in a flow-down, monarcho-oligarchic institution --- which the RCC is --- petitions plus two bucks will get one a cup of expresso.


Nothing more.  Wink

The Path to Moon Lake
doesn't go there.
So walk your own Dharma*Path;
be mindful.

Dutch
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2 years ago  ::  Dec 26, 2011 - 12:09PM #3
RJMcElwain
Posts: 2,881

Dec 25, 2011 -- 9:44PM, Nino0814 wrote:

The crisis in the RC Church in Belgium has caused a few priests to issue a call to reform that is bolder than Luther's.  Mass without priests?  IMO this is too radical.   

ncronline.org/news/global/belgian-cathol...




If I were Catholic, I'd be signing the petition.



Robert J. McElwain

"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." (Supposedly)Thomas Jefferson

"He who is not angry when there is just cause for anger is immoral."
St. Thomas Aquinas

One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. Plato
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2 years ago  ::  Dec 26, 2011 - 12:44PM #4
Dutch777
Posts: 9,056

Dec 26, 2011 -- 12:34PM, Nino0814 wrote:


What limitation would you put on the choice of who presides?


As I previously indicated, while I'm not opposed to the concept in theory,  I have profound difficulties with it in application.


 


 Would you be comfortable with lay people celbrating the Eucharist in their own homes?


No.  That would rapidly degenerate into an inzy-groupzy affair by invitation only.  Horrible situation.


 It would seem to miscommunicate the nature of the Eucharist as a shared meal of all believers.   I would not have an issue with a Bishop authorising a lay person to celebrate the Eucharist for the benefit of the Church.


TEC already has this provision.  It's called Canon Nine Priest.  


 IMO we should following the precedent that someone is sent by the Church to celebrate the Eucharist: 


St. Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, 8:1, 110 A.D: "Let that Eucharist be held valid which is offered by the bishop or by the one to whom the bishop has committed this charge. Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."




Let's be careful not to retroject the later, developed concept of bishop onto the much earlier church.  At that point in history, "bishop" i.e. "overseer" / "supervisor", was a presiding elder whose qualifications were moral and spiritual rather than academic and canonical, as we now understand things episcopal.  The situation back then was far more fluid; each church in each major city appears to have its own format of liturgy, governance, and ethos.


As I've stated, this is a Belgian RCC matter; it doesn't touch us except hypothetically.

The Path to Moon Lake
doesn't go there.
So walk your own Dharma*Path;
be mindful.

Dutch
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2 years ago  ::  Feb 04, 2012 - 6:28PM #5
Nino0814
Posts: 1,655

A courageous Catholic nun speaks out on behalf of marriage equality:


www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEtfgc8nsyQ&feat...

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 8:50AM #6
Dutch777
Posts: 9,056

I wouldn't become too enthusiastic about the RCC's response to reform movements.  The Vatican has never entertained warm-'n-fuzzy sentiments towards anything which challanged its authority or tickled the status quo.


Here's the latest Vatican hatchet-job:


news.yahoo.com/vatican-orders-crackdown-...


This is a re-play  of the crackdown on "Modernism" ordered by Pius X ca. 1905, against priests, theologians, professors and seminarians.


Enjoy; comments welcomed.

The Path to Moon Lake
doesn't go there.
So walk your own Dharma*Path;
be mindful.

Dutch
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 1:31PM #7
Emersonbernard
Posts: 122

Apr 19, 2012 -- 8:50AM, Dutch777 wrote:

I wouldn't become too enthusiastic about the RCC's response to reform movements.  The Vatican has never entertained warm-'n-fuzzy sentiments towards anything which challanged its authority or tickled the status quo.


Here's the latest Vatican hatchet-job:


news.yahoo.com/vatican-orders-crackdown-...


This is a re-play  of the crackdown on "Modernism" ordered by Pius X ca. 1905, against priests, theologians, professors and seminarians.


Enjoy; comments welcomed.


"I don't know any more holy people," Cafardi said of American religious sisters. "I see a lot more holiness in the convents than I see in the chancery."


I couldn't agree more. This has been my experience, as well.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 2:55PM #8
RJMcElwain
Posts: 2,881

I'm with the Nuns. I hope they fight back, and tell the ArchBishop to go to H$!!

Robert J. McElwain

"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." (Supposedly)Thomas Jefferson

"He who is not angry when there is just cause for anger is immoral."
St. Thomas Aquinas

One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. Plato
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 6:15PM #9
Jupiter6208
Posts: 2,275

I believe change in the RCC has to come within the Church and this is a good example.


"A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person."  Dave Berry



You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger. Buddha.
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