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Switch to Forum Live View Church of England future bleak?
3 years ago  ::  Dec 16, 2011 - 12:50AM #1
WaveringCC
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 16, 2011 - 10:49AM #2
Dutch777
Posts: 9,116

Dec 16, 2011 -- 12:50AM, WaveringCC wrote:

Do you all agree?  
 http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/dec/14/church-of-england-future-bleak




Yes, the future for the CoE looks as bleak as the future for buggy whips.


European and British societies tend to be non-religious in outlook --- or at least apathetic.  I don't know what the solution is, or even if there is a solution.  Perhaps the institutional church as we know it is an anachronism, like the coelacanth.


www.abdn.ac.uk/~nhi708/images/coelacanth.jpg

The Path
To Moon Lake
Doesn't Go
There.

So Walk
Your own Dharma*Path
And Be
Mindful

Dutch
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 16, 2011 - 5:31PM #3
SeraphimR
Posts: 9,358

Dec 16, 2011 -- 10:49AM, Dutch777 wrote:


Dec 16, 2011 -- 12:50AM, WaveringCC wrote:

Do you all agree?  
 http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/dec/14/church-of-england-future-bleak




Yes, the future for the CoE looks as bleak as the future for buggy whips.


European and British societies tend to be non-religious in outlook --- or at least apathetic.  I don't know what the solution is, or even if there is a solution.  Perhaps the institutional church as we know it is an anachronism, like the coelacanth.


www.abdn.ac.uk/~nhi708/images/coelacanth.jpg




Then again, the future of Europe looks bleak.  As the Church of England goes, so goes the nation?

People with a mission to save the earth want the earth to seem worse than it is so their mission will look more important.


P.J. O'Rourke
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 06, 2012 - 5:03AM #4
BBarton
Posts: 1,670

The Church of England was Henry the VIII's answer to Imperial Religion from Rome.  "Send them home and start your own."  Okay, he didn't say that, but he did that.


Immersed in our traditions, we often forget how things came to be, or see where they're headed.


State religion was only used by Henry to send Rome packing.  Henry didn't want to bend his knee to a Pope, but insisted on his and England's sovereignty.


Before Rome's interferrence, Christianity existed England, as well as Ireland, Wales, and Scotland; in the form of community churches, i.e., the Celtic church.  Community churches are a great idea.  Imagine what could be done without the trickle up effect of funds. 


Perhaps we are not seeing the decline of faith as much as religious empires.  


  

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 06, 2012 - 7:19AM #5
Jupiter6208
Posts: 2,366

Great point!

"A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person."  Dave Berry



You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger. Buddha.

What the heart loves, the will chooses, and the mind justifies.”


― Thomas Cranmer
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 06, 2012 - 9:40AM #6
RJMcElwain
Posts: 2,954

Jan 6, 2012 -- 5:03AM, BBarton wrote:


..................................Before Rome's interferrence, Christianity existed England, as well as Ireland, Wales, and Scotland; in the form of community churches, i.e., the Celtic church.  Community churches are a great idea.  Imagine what could be done without the trickle up effect of funds. 


Perhaps we are not seeing the decline of faith as much as religious empires.  


  




Excellent point. We've been having very similar conversations about hierarchy in our Diocese lately.

Robert J. McElwain

"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." (Supposedly)Thomas Jefferson

"He who is not angry when there is just cause for anger is immoral."
St. Thomas Aquinas

One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. Plato
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 06, 2012 - 11:17AM #7
Dutch777
Posts: 9,116

Jan 6, 2012 -- 5:03AM, BBarton wrote:

Perhaps we are not seeing the decline of faith


This depends entirely upon the definition of "faith" that one is using.  Are we discussing "objective faith" or "subjective faith", as I've previously pointed out.


Definitions of terms are critically important.   Otherwise, the conversation is meaningless and irrelevant.


 as much as religious empires.  


Yes, imvho, the massive religious empires are passe'.   I suppose they're being replaced by more modest scams e.g.  minor religious satrapies.   The followers of Pat Robertson, of any televangelist, or of the current crop of  denominations which are reduced in power and influence would fit this concept.


The power of churches to bully and twist governments, to suppress and terrify populations, is thankfully finished in the civilized world.


  





The Path
To Moon Lake
Doesn't Go
There.

So Walk
Your own Dharma*Path
And Be
Mindful

Dutch
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 06, 2012 - 3:17PM #8
BBarton
Posts: 1,670

Jan 6, 2012 -- 9:40AM, RJMcElwain wrote:


Jan 6, 2012 -- 5:03AM, BBarton wrote:


..................................Before Rome's interferrence, Christianity existed England, as well as Ireland, Wales, and Scotland; in the form of community churches, i.e., the Celtic church.  Community churches are a great idea.  Imagine what could be done without the trickle up effect of funds. 


Perhaps we are not seeing the decline of faith as much as religious empires.  


  




Excellent point. We've been having very similar conversations about hierarchy in our Diocese lately.




Yes, what is the saying about letting your money sweat in your palm before irresponsibly giving it away?  Who can turn a blind eye as we see our neighbors, family and friends get eaten by the backside of greed, the Phalse Profit?  -For isnt' that the decision maker for so many; individuals, nations, and their endeavors, religious, medical, or otherwise?


We give of resources, time, and talent, like probably most of you, but it seems they're forever wanting more.  Pay someone's mortgage, who lost their job and unemployment ran out.  You want to see gratitude?  Religion has a deal with state; we get to deduct our donations to the hierarchy.  We don't get to deduct helping the needy; unless it's through an organization most of which have the very top living like princes of the earth.


It is the few who threaten the hierarchy itself, not the faith.  The faith was before them and will continue regardless.  Christ, the Holy Spirit and a personal relationship to our Father cannot be subjugated by man.   

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 06, 2012 - 3:37PM #9
BBarton
Posts: 1,670

Jan 6, 2012 -- 11:17AM, Dutch777 wrote:


Jan 6, 2012 -- 5:03AM, BBarton wrote:

Perhaps we are not seeing the decline of faith


This depends entirely upon the definition of "faith" that one is using.  Are we discussing "objective faith" or "subjective faith", as I've previously pointed out.


Definitions of terms are critically important.   Otherwise, the conversation is meaningless and irrelevant.


Inclusive Faith; the truth of our heart -in nurturing relationship to the All; what we live. Though surely some only practice ('till they get it).


 as much as religious empires.  


Yes, imvho, the massive religious empires are passe'.  Hallelujah! I suppose they're being replaced by more modest scams e.g.  minor religious satrapies.   The followers of Pat Robertson, of any televangelist, or of the current crop of  denominations which are reduced in power and influence would fit this concept.  Yeah, listen to 'em five minutes; just as you open your heart, they go for your wallet!


The power of churches to bully and twist governments, to suppress and terrify populations, is thankfully finished in the civilized world.  Amen!  Now, if we can only free our minds.  









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3 years ago  ::  Jan 06, 2012 - 3:53PM #10
RJMcElwain
Posts: 2,954

So is the bleak outlook for CofE and the rest of Europe a precursor for TEC and the rest of mainline Christianity in the USA?


More specifically, does TEC need 105 Dioceses and accompanying hierarchy?

Robert J. McElwain

"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." (Supposedly)Thomas Jefferson

"He who is not angry when there is just cause for anger is immoral."
St. Thomas Aquinas

One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. Plato
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