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Switch to Forum Live View returning to the medieval church?
3 years ago  ::  Sep 25, 2011 - 2:14AM #1
TomeReader
Posts: 70
The Roman Catholic Bishop of the Diocese of Phoenix has announced that this diocese will no longer administer wine to the laity during communion. I'm wondering how many of my Roman Catholic friends will stay with the church and for how much longer.
Any thoughts?

Lynn
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3 years ago  ::  Sep 26, 2011 - 12:06AM #2
alwaysinterested
Posts: 77

What was his rationale?

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3 years ago  ::  Sep 26, 2011 - 12:30AM #3
TomeReader
Posts: 70

Sep 26, 2011 -- 12:06AM, alwaysinterested wrote:

What was his rationale?


I checked further and the US and a number of other Western countries have had an "experimental liturgy" for some time that allows them to administer both elements. The bishop is a canon lawyer and used the latest liturgical guides to: 1) bring the church in this dioces into conformity with practice throughout the world, and 2) to eliminate the extra number of necessary lay eucharistic ministers needed in order to recognize the importance of the clergy and deacons.


I sort of understand point 1. But point 2 seems to be nothing more than an attempt to put the laity in their place and to reinforce the power of the clergy and the church's magisterium. This bishop is noted for being highly conservative and this action reinforces his conservatism.


He has allowed that during a small number of important church festivals, the laity can receive both elements. Interestingly  the head priest at one major local church (and maybe others) has petitioned for an exception for his parish.


As a Lutheran, I view this in terms of the Reformation's liturgical reforms and Luther's emphasis on the laity.


Lynn

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3 years ago  ::  Sep 26, 2011 - 9:56AM #4
steve123
Posts: 610

So just to get this straight - they (laity) can take the body but not the blood?


 


If that is the case, Roman Catholic tradition has always stated that both are contained in the one element.

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3 years ago  ::  Sep 26, 2011 - 10:39AM #5
AFskypilot
Posts: 352

Am thinking, given the ongoing clergy sex scandals (the Montana Diocese has just had a class action suit filed against it), it is my guess the bishop is trying to restore the standing of clergy.  However, this is only one bishop asserting his authority.  Time will tell if the rest of the American Conference of Bishops will follow suit. 

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3 years ago  ::  Sep 27, 2011 - 12:08AM #6
TomeReader
Posts: 70

Sep 26, 2011 -- 10:39AM, AFskypilot wrote:

Am thinking, given the ongoing clergy sex scandals (the Montana Diocese has just had a class action suit filed against it), it is my guess the bishop is trying to restore the standing of clergy.  However, this is only one bishop asserting his authority.  Time will tell if the rest of the American Conference of Bishops will follow suit. 


It's more than the sex scandals. He closed a continuing education center that offered master's degrees and left its 20000 volume library in the lurch. He was noted as a conservative before he even arrived here.


The Roman Catholic church had made so much progress. As a Lutheran I'm sad to see my forerunner in the faith slowly regress to a pre-Vatican II state.


Also this makes me glad that the ELCA practices such a contentious decision making process: the laity, the clergy, the bureaucrats, the bishops, and the seminaries all have a voice. And slowly but surely and painfully we conform our earthly institution into the image of the Kingdom of God while knowing full well that we'll never become the Kingdom of God this side of the eschaton.

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3 years ago  ::  Sep 27, 2011 - 9:29AM #7
steve123
Posts: 610

Therefore, although the priest (or minister) says, "The body of Christ", when administering the host, and, "The blood of Christ", when presenting the chalice, the communicant who receives either one receives Christ, whole and entire— "Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity". en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharist_in_the_C...


 


There are those Catholics who would love to go back to Pre Vat. II days.  Those traditionalists, although I don't think they are the majority of American Catholics, do still have a voice, and probably love Benedict as the Pope.  And also blindly follow anything that the local Bishop says, including this Pheonix declaration.

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3 years ago  ::  Sep 27, 2011 - 9:32AM #8
steve123
Posts: 610

I would also add, that not all priests are RC traditionalists (those who would be ok with such a Phoenix declaration).  My Spirutal mentor/advisor, even though I am Lutheran, is the local parish priest who is very progressive and ecumenical in his thinking.

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