Important Announcement

See here for an important message regarding the community which has become a read-only site as of October 31.

 
Post Reply
Page 5 of 8  •  Prev 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next
Switch to Forum Live View Desperately Need To Repent - Can't Feel Godly Sorrow
7 years ago  ::  May 19, 2011 - 10:44AM #41
arabianhorselover
Posts: 85

Where is God's promise of adoption at Baptism?

God Has Always Been With Me - Even Though I Haven't Realized It.
Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  May 19, 2011 - 11:04AM #42
WannabeTheo
Posts: 401

May 19, 2011 -- 10:44AM, arabianhorselover wrote:


Where is God's promise of adoption at Baptism?




Titus, Chapter 3:


3For we ourselves were  once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and  pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, despicable, hating one  another. 4But when the goodness and loving-kindness of God our Saviour appeared, 5he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit. 6This Spirit he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, 7so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8The saying is sure.

Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  May 19, 2011 - 11:18AM #43
teilhard
Posts: 53,304

Anyway, a Real NON-Christian doesn't give a RIP about such Questions ...


May 19, 2011 -- 10:07AM, WannabeTheo wrote:


I have a simpler answer to the question: "how do you know when you are a real Christian?"


When you stop worrying whether or not you are a 'real' Christian and trust in God's promise of adoption in baptism.  The rest flows naturally from God's grace.





Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  May 19, 2011 - 11:25AM #44
arabianhorselover
Posts: 85

I guess that's true.  I don't know why I have to be the kind of person that drives themself crazy questioning things and wanting to make sure I've it absolutely right.  Other people just don't seem to worry about these things.  They just go with what they've been told. 


 


Sometimes I can look at myself and think that God must be with me.  Other times I just don't measure up to other people at all in my mind.  I always look at those who seem to be doing so much more with their lives.  People who seem to really be making a difference n this world.


 


May 19, 2011 -- 11:18AM, teilhard wrote:


Anyway, a Real NON-Christian doesn't give a RIP about such Questions ...


May 19, 2011 -- 10:07AM, WannabeTheo wrote:


I have a simpler answer to the question: "how do you know when you are a real Christian?"


When you stop worrying whether or not you are a 'real' Christian and trust in God's promise of adoption in baptism.  The rest flows naturally from God's grace.









God Has Always Been With Me - Even Though I Haven't Realized It.
Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  May 19, 2011 - 2:59PM #45
tawonda
Posts: 4,367

In addition to the Titus citation I'd also cite this from Romans: We were therefore buried with Him through Baptism into death in order that,just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of theFather,we too may live a new life. (Rom.6:4).




 All the churches in the broad catholic tradition of Christianity -- Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, Presbyterian/Reformed -- share the same sacramental understanding of Holy Baptism; as a gracious gift of God to us, a gift of adoption into God's family. This isn't some renegade idea of Luther's; it's how the historical Church understood Holy Baptism until the Anabaptists came along in the 16th century.





 I would strongly urge you, for your own spiritual health and peace of mind, to stick to your church home for your theological information, and steer clear of inter-/non-denominational ministries that play theological bait-and-switch with participants. In my experience I've seen nothing good come out of situations where Lutherans get involved in these things with the innocent expectation that they'll be respected as fellow Christians.



BTW, I followed your link to the "Setting Captives Free" website. I'm not at all impressed by their "Christianity test." To put it very bluntly (my pastor and I have a tendency in this direction), it's works-righteousness-based crap theology. It's the kind of theology that creates the despair that you seem to feel about your own state of grace. It's very similar to Luther's experience, as a young man, of feeling so inadequate to meet what he'd been told were God's demands that instead of loving God, he feared and hated God.


In my own life I've seen friends being pushed almost to suicide by fundamentalist, works-righteousness-based theology, and  with God's help I will fight it when I encounter it with every fiber of my being.


You don't have to pass a "Christianity test." That's BS. You were born into the family of God in your Holy Baptism; and your concern about your relationship with God is only possible because you HAVE a relationship with God right now, one that God initiated because God loves you.


You say that you don't feel that you're doing enough "Christian" things in your life. That's more BS. There is a concept called vocation of place that says, basically, that we're called to be who we are, right now, in our given situation, and live Christ into the world as we're called at any given moment. Luther held up farmers and housewives and household servants as people on spiritual par -- at least on spiritual par -- with priests and monastics and theologians and  other spiritual athletes; and that is soundly biblical in thought. Now, you know better than anyone else how to live out that vocation within your own life; where you can, as the baptismal liturgy says, let your light so shine before others that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven. But you don't have to do that alone. You have the support of your church family; you have the resources of prayer and Bible study; you have the support of other Lutheran Christians like the folks here.


And we live Christ into the world in our own situational ways, not because we're trying to pass a "test" or to get God to love us or to keep God from hating us, but because we love God. There is no payoff here; no earning points by doing stuff. Jesus has earned the points on our behalf.


If I sound very adamant about all of this, it's because I'm passionate about the Lutheran affirmation of God's grace. That is our tradition's great gift to Christendom. And because of experiences like yours, I think it's imperative that we treat the Reformation not as an historical era but as an ongoing process, because obviously not everyone in Christendom has gotten the memo that God loves us, forgives us and calls us to new life regardless of any real or perceived merit on our parts.


 



Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  May 19, 2011 - 3:32PM #46
arabianhorselover
Posts: 85

Well, there are things in my own church that I don't agree with, but as my husband says, you aren't going to agree with everything in any church.


Even though the Setting Captives Free website is not "Lutheran", I really haven't seen anything there that I don't agree with.


I have also gotten a lot of information from www.gotquestions.org.  It is supposed to be based on the Bible, and it seems to be.  That's the site that got me wondering about the Baptism stuff.  There really isn't anything in the Bible that would indicate that infants should be baptised, or that anyone should be baptised by sprinkling.  I'm not sure where that ever started.  Of course, there are numerous ways of interpreting the Bible.


 


 

God Has Always Been With Me - Even Though I Haven't Realized It.
Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  May 19, 2011 - 3:52PM #47
tawonda
Posts: 4,367

I went to that website, and according to its "About" page it's run by a fundamentalist -- oh, and there's that "non-denominational" word again. Is that really where you want to be getting your theological information? What are your criteria for choosing websites to trust about your theological information?


I'm curious: Have you ever gone through adult religious education in the context of your own church? Is there a reason why you aren't comfortable asking questions of your pastor or informed laypeople at your church?


I'm asking because my pastor LOVES to answer people's theological questions. And as a commissioned lay minister, so do I...in fact, we have a feature on our church blog, Wednesday Whys, where I answer people's questions about faith stuff; if I don't know the answer I find someone who does. (hopeinrhodes.blogspot.com) If this is a more comfortable way for you to learn about faith, I'd encourage you to ask questions there, or go through our archives and see what other people have asked.


I'm just speaking for myself here, but -- if I have a theological question that doesn't directly involve ecumenical relations;-), I don't ask a Baptist or a Pentecostal or a Quaker -- I ask someone with "chops" in our own tradition...the way that, if I have questions about a prescription drug, I ask my doctor and not my neighbor's doctor. Do you see what I'm saying?

Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  May 19, 2011 - 3:59PM #48
arabianhorselover
Posts: 85

Are you saying you went to Setting Captives Free or to gotquestions.org?

God Has Always Been With Me - Even Though I Haven't Realized It.
Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  May 19, 2011 - 4:17PM #49
tawonda
Posts: 4,367

I went to both of them. And I'd never refer anyone to either one of them for anything.

Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  May 20, 2011 - 8:17AM #50
arabianhorselover
Posts: 85

So what in the world do you find wrong with gotquestions.org?


I was born and raised in the ELCA.  I was baptized and confirmed there.  About 12 years ago I switched to the Missouri Synod.  In order to switch, I had to go through adult education with the pastor.  I love my pastor.  He is wonderful.  However, there are a few things that I do not agree with him on.  For instance, he does not believe in free will.  I say if we don't have free will, then what is the point of life?  He also believes that we cannot make a decision to follow Christ.  That God draws us to himself.  I say, why would God want a bunch of children who are only with him because he said they had to be.  Way back in Jesus' day people either chose him or they didn't.  This brings me back to the baptism thing.  If we are saved at our baptism, then we don't have the opportunity to choose him.  Again, for him, what would be the point?


I have spoken with my pastor about my overeating issue.  However, I don't think he realizes the seriousness of the situation.  You say as Christians we do good works because we love God.  Well, I don't think I have ever felt any love for God.  I want to, but all I've ever really felt is fear and abandonment starting when I was a child.  I have not really trusted him since then.  I have always conconued to pray to him, because I need him.  And because there are so many times when there is nowhere else to turn.  I don't ever remember really feeling his presence.  What I have loved is the food.  Rather than hating my sin, I have not wanted to give it up.  I have wanted God to keep me healthy and happy while I continue to have this other god before him.  I have not taken care of this body that he gave me.


 


 

God Has Always Been With Me - Even Though I Haven't Realized It.
Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 5 of 8  •  Prev 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook