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Switch to Forum Live View Faithful "Lutherans" are NOT "Schismatics" but "Confessional"
7 years ago  ::  Mar 26, 2011 - 1:04PM #1
teilhard
Posts: 53,304
Contrary to popular (Protest Ant) misunderstandings, The "Lutheran" Movement properly has been, always was, not least because it began as, a  REFORM  MOVEMENT  within The (Roman) Catholic Mainstream ...

"Here I Stand ... " was never  MEANT  to be understood as, "I'm  OUTA  HERE ... !!!" ...

"Lutherans" are solidly "Confessional," openly stating what we understand and so teach, believe, and confess to be TRUE ... WITHOUT being "Schismatic" ...

Luther, Melanchthon, et al., never intended to  SPLIT  The Church, or split FROM It, but only to REFORM It ...

This is not least of the GOOD  Reasons  for enthusiastic -- FAITHFUL -- ongoing Ecumenical Conversations, Cooperation, Partnerships especially over the last several Decades ...
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 28, 2011 - 9:33AM #2
WannabeTheo
Posts: 401

I agree Teilhard.  I've been reading the Augsburg Confession, and one thing that strikes me is that it is essentially an effort to convince the emperor that the reformers were still catholic, in fact, even truer to the catholic tradition than their Roman opponents.  Great care is taken to differentiate between themselves and the Swiss reformers, such as Zwinglie, who moved quite far away from catholic tradition.


As a side note, I wonder how much a role politics played in how far the different traditions move from Rome.  After all, the Lutherans were in Germany, part of the Holy Roman Empire, while the Swiss were notoriously independent.


And I agree that ecumenical cooperation is of primary importance.  After all, we are all one in Christ Jesus.

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7 years ago  ::  Mar 28, 2011 - 1:35PM #3
Hoppy393
Posts: 3,040

Shall I bring up Seminex?

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7 years ago  ::  Mar 28, 2011 - 1:45PM #4
WannabeTheo
Posts: 401

Mar 28, 2011 -- 1:35PM, Hoppy393 wrote:


Shall I bring up Seminex?





Speaking only for myself, my response was in support of ecumenical relations with the RCC and others (UMC, PCUSA, TECUSA, etc)


I'm fine with individuals and congregations changing denominations, if they believe they can be the body of Christ better in the new denomination.

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7 years ago  ::  Mar 28, 2011 - 7:36PM #5
teilhard
Posts: 53,304

EXCELLENT Example of The Point ...


VERY unfortunately, during The very Late 60s and The 70s, The LCMS began systematically relentlessly conducting a Theological-Biblical "House-Cleansing" (Destruction) in which "Liberals" were rooted-hounded OUT of The LCMS ... ONE Result was "Seminary-in-Exile," THEN The AELC, which Group was instrumental in bringing about The ELCA ...


Mar 28, 2011 -- 1:35PM, Hoppy393 wrote:


Shall I bring up Seminex?





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7 years ago  ::  Mar 28, 2011 - 9:45PM #6
Hoppy393
Posts: 3,040

Just pointing out that people can leave, and people can encourage others to leave, and still fit your opening point: Faithful Lutherans are confessional and not schismatic.

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7 years ago  ::  Mar 28, 2011 - 11:52PM #7
teilhard
Posts: 53,304

No ... The LCMS "Seminary in Exile" WASN'T formed by Persons who "left" The LCMS ... They were "PURGED" ...


Mar 28, 2011 -- 9:45PM, Hoppy393 wrote:


Just pointing out that people can leave, and people can encourage others to leave, and still fit your opening point: Faithful Lutherans are confessional and not schismatic.





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7 years ago  ::  Mar 29, 2011 - 10:21AM #8
AFskypilot
Posts: 352

You can bring up Seminex, Hoppy, but as a former student of Seminex, I can tell you it was not formed because our people were schismatic, it was formed in response to the schismatic move  of the conservative Board of Control to purge the faculty at Concordia Seminary.


The fact remains that Seminex and the AELC were instrumental in the merger of the LCA and ALC with AELC into the ELCA.


If you ask me it is the LCMS that remains schismatic when it continues to insist full agreement on all points of doctrine before fellowship.  Yet the Augburg Confession says:


1] Also they teach that one holy Church is to continue forever.  The Church is the congregation of saints, in which the Gospel  is rightly taught and the Sacraments are rightly administered.    2] And to the true unity of the Church it is enough to agree concerning  the doctrine of the Gospel and 3] the administration  of the Sacraments. Nor is it necessary that human traditions,  that is, rites or ceremonies, instituted by men, should be everywhere  alike. 4] As Paul says: One faith, one Baptism, one  God  and Father of all, etc. Eph. 4:5-6


It shows schism when it insists only card carrying LCMS Lutherans are welcomed to the Lord's Table.  (Whose table is it, anyway?)


It continues to be schismatic when it condemns the internal politics of other Synodical bodies. 


So bring up Seminex, if you what to, Hoppy, but word of advice: people in glass houses should not throw stones.


 


 

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7 years ago  ::  Mar 29, 2011 - 10:42AM #9
teilhard
Posts: 53,304

And The Preuss Faction tried to require "Subscription" to a NEW "Confessional Document," called "Statement of Scriptural and Confessional Principles" ...


I don't know what the Status of THAT Document is in The LCMS these Days, but I have a hunch it has been quietly  ***ahem***  "shelved" ...

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7 years ago  ::  Mar 30, 2011 - 2:01AM #10
Hoppy393
Posts: 3,040

Mar 28, 2011 -- 11:52PM, teilhard wrote:


No ... The LCMS "Seminary in Exile" WASN'T formed by Persons who "left" The LCMS ... They were "PURGED" ...


Mar 28, 2011 -- 9:45PM, Hoppy393 wrote:


Just pointing out that people can leave, and people can encourage others to leave, and still fit your opening point: Faithful Lutherans are confessional and not schismatic.






No.  A few were purged.  Students and Faculty then came to their support.  And there were some who had outreach events to spread awareness of what happened.


I'm not saying they were schismatic.  I'm saying they were confessional, and to remain confessional, they had to leave. 


The treatment of the faculty was underhanded, the charges vague, and the conservative coup of the LCMS was not by the book.  But there was a decision to leave, and it started long before with a doctrinal dispute.

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