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Locked: An appeal to lurkers for information.
7 years ago  ::  Mar 24, 2011 - 10:53AM #1
G_Erdner
Posts: 172

There are maybe half a dozen people who actually post in here, but I suspect that there might be lurkers who read without posting. This thread is specifically addressed to those lurkers.

I am working on a project to document the fallout from the 2009 ELCA CWA. It's a database file in Excel format that anyone can access to find information about the effect on congregations from the 2009 ELCA Churchwide Assembly's decisions. I'm attempting to list all congregations that have taken votes to leave the ELCA, and whether they have failed or succeeded. For congregations that are in or were in the ELCA, I have which predecessor church body they belonged to, and their reported Baptized Membership and Average Attendance from the 2010 ELCA Yearbook. It also includes new congregation starts in other Lutheran church bodies, mostly LCMC and NALC, and what church bodies the congregations that left the ELCA transferred their affiliation to. You can find and download a copy of this file here. The file is updated every week or so.

There are two general categories of information that are proving to be difficult to find.


The first is information on new ELCA mission starts. I have read published reports that the ELCA has launched as many as 70 new congregations since the August 2009 CWA. We've located only 9 so far.


The other is information on ELCA congregations that took first or second votes that failed. The ELCA reports that there are 240 ELCA congregations that took first votes that failed. We can find only 76. Even if some of those churches took a second "1st vote" that passed, there are still a large number of ELCA congregations that voted to stay that aren't on the list.


Any assistance in getting the name, city, and state for these missing congregations would be greatly appreciated. The intention for this archive is to gather an accurate picture of the allout of the 2009 ELCA CWA, not to simply post information that makes the ELCA look bad. Without information on new ELCA starts, and ELCA congregations that voted to stay, this database makes the fallout of the 009 CWA appear worse than it really is.

You can reply by making a post here, or e-mailing me at g_erdner@yahoo.com.

George Erdner
 

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7 years ago  ::  Mar 24, 2011 - 12:21PM #2
teilhard
Posts: 53,304

"Information" -- and its gathering and sharing -- is seldom simply a Matter of neutral intent or idle curiosity ...


Mr. Erdner --


Why do you want to know ... ??? 


What do you expect will be done with the Information you gather and make available ... ???

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7 years ago  ::  Mar 24, 2011 - 12:39PM #3
G_Erdner
Posts: 172

Mar 24, 2011 -- 12:21PM, teilhard wrote:


"Information" -- and its gathering and sharing -- is seldom simply a Matter of neutral intent or idle curiosity ...


Mr. Erdner --


Why do you want to know ... ??? 


What do you expect will be done with the Information you gather and make available ... ???




Read John 8:32. Then review the Small Catechism's teaching on the Eighth Commandment.


Or didn't they cover that when you were in seminary?




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7 years ago  ::  Mar 24, 2011 - 1:31PM #4
teilhard
Posts: 53,304

I just asked a couple of simple straight-forward Questions --


Why do you want to know this Information ... ???


What do you expect will happen from its gathering and publication ... ???


(Your rather peculiar Reference to John 8:32 would seem to indicate that you -- and others -- will be somehow "set free" by having such Statistical Facts ... ???  What the ... ???)


BTW, the Distinction (below) between "Poster" and "Lurker" is probably not Realistic ... MANY of us who Post actively and regularly ALSO "Lurk" here-and-there WITHOUT Posting ... So ...


But again, according to my Synodical Bishop, as of 1-10-11, 377 Congregations have "left The ELCA" over The 2009 CWA ... OMG ... SNAFU ...


Mar 24, 2011 -- 12:39PM, G_Erdner wrote:


Mar 24, 2011 -- 12:21PM, teilhard wrote:


"Information" -- and its gathering and sharing -- is seldom simply a Matter of neutral intent or idle curiosity ...


Mr. Erdner --


Why do you want to know ... ??? 


What do you expect will be done with the Information you gather and make available ... ???




Read John 8:32. Then review the Small Catechism's teaching on the Eighth Commandment.


Or didn't they cover that when you were in seminary?








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7 years ago  ::  Mar 24, 2011 - 2:26PM #5
G_Erdner
Posts: 172

Mar 24, 2011 -- 1:31PM, teilhard wrote:


I just asked a couple of simple straight-forward Questions --


Why do you want to know this Information ... ???


What do you expect will happen from its gathering and publication ... ???




Bull! Those questions were already answered in my original post. You are challenging my motives through some bogus, passive/agressive challenges thinly veiled in the guise of "simple straight-forward Questions".


Mar 24, 2011 -- 1:31PM, teilhard wrote:


But again, according to my Synodical Bishop, as of 1-10-11, 377 Congregations have "left The ELCA" over The 2009 CWA ...




According to Bishop Kurt Kusserow, of the Southwestern Pennsylvania Synod, 414 congregations have left the ELCA. The database I have compiled is slightly more recent, as it is kept up-to-date in real time, and now includes 429 congregations that have left the ELCA, including those released through means other than the voting process. For example, three yoked congregations in the Lower Susquehanna Synod were permitted to leave by their bishop because they called a pastor who was not on the ELCA roster. You can stick to your outdated data. I posted the entire list of all the congregations that left. That was a list that anyone who was so inclinded could look up and verify if they chose to.


Which, obviously, is the advantage of an actual verifiable list compared to anyone just throwing around unverifiable numbers.


Incidentally, as a result of this thread, I was informed that two congregations I had listed as "new starts" were actually one congregation that had left the ELCA. A congregation in Tennessee that I thought was a new start was an ELCA congregation that left, changed its name, and moved to a new building ten miles away, which put it in a different city. Does the ELCA keep their published records that up-to-date, and with such corrections made as errors are discovered?


And, what of the people involved? Does the ELCA's publishing of raw count numbers include the membership of each congregation involved?


_________________________________________________________________
Edited to remove data tables that damaged the proper formatting of this thread.
Moderated by Beliefnet_community on Mar 25, 2011 - 12:06PM
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 24, 2011 - 5:32PM #6
teilhard
Posts: 53,304

Again, my own "take" on this Question is that I'm surprised at how FEW Congregations have split away.


Mar 24, 2011 -- 2:26PM, G_Erdner wrote:


Mar 24, 2011 -- 1:31PM, teilhard wrote:


I just asked a couple of simple straight-forward Questions --


Why do you want to know this Information ... ???


What do you expect will happen from its gathering and publication ... ???




Bull! Those questions were already answered in my original post. You are challenging my motives through some bogus, passive/agressive challenges thinly veiled in the guise of "simple straight-forward Questions".


Mar 24, 2011 -- 1:31PM, teilhard wrote:


But again, according to my Synodical Bishop, as of 1-10-11, 377 Congregations have "left The ELCA" over The 2009 CWA ...




According to Bishop Kurt Kusserow, of the Southwestern Pennsylvania Synod, 414 congregations have left the ELCA. The database I have compiled is slightly more recent, as it is kept up-to-date in real time, and now includes 429 congregations that have left the ELCA, including those released through means other than the voting process. For example, three yoked congregations in the Lower Susquehanna Synod were permitted to leave by their bishop because they called a pastor who was not on the ELCA roster. You can stick to your outdated data. I posted the entire list of all the congregations that left. That was a list that anyone who was so inclinded could look up and verify if they chose to.


Which, obviously, is the advantage of an actual verifiable list compared to anyone just throwing around unverifiable numbers.


Incidentally, as a result of this thread, I was informed that two congregations I had listed as "new starts" were actually one congregation that had left the ELCA. A congregation in Tennessee that I thought was a new start was an ELCA congregation that left, changed its name, and moved to a new building ten miles away, which put it in a different city. Does the ELCA keep their published records that up-to-date, and with such corrections made as errors are discovered?


And, what of the people involved? Does the ELCA's publishing of raw count numbers include the membership of each congregation involved?





Moderated by Beliefnet_community on Mar 25, 2011 - 12:09PM
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 24, 2011 - 10:03PM #7
tawonda
Posts: 4,367

Wouldn't it just be easier to switch Lutheran church bodies?


It'd be for me. I hate Excel.


 

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7 years ago  ::  Mar 24, 2011 - 11:02PM #8
G_Erdner
Posts: 172

Tawanda,


I would switch church bodies in a New York minute if there were any Lutheran churches near me other than ELCA. As soon as any Lutheran church affiliated with the LCMC, NALC, ALFC, or some other centrist church body opens up that's close enough that I can travel there for Sunday worship, either by an ELCA church changing affiliations or a new congregation starts, I'll become a member.


But this project is, I believe, something that needs to be done. Pastor Dave Barnhart has done an excellent job of reporting on congregations voting to leave the ELCA. I am not attempting to duplicate his work. But I think there is also a need for an easily usable archive of basic information about the effects of this unprecedented event in the Lutheran faith tradition. The results of those actions need to be available and verifiable. And, the whole picture needs to be reported.


I realize that those who drank the ELCA Kool Aid are convinced that there is no such thing as right or wrong, and that all opinions are equally valid. That's why people like the anonymous pastor insists on responding with nothing but ad hominem attacks against me. He challenges my motives. He challenges my credentials. He can't challenge the information I've posted, because it is as accurate as I can make it, and because I'll quickly correct any mistake pointed out to me.


Consider these sets of churches. This are cities where those on the losing side of a vote started a new congregation. It's not 100% complete. There are some new starts in an adjacent city with a different name that I cannot match up. I've noted in bold the new ELCA starts where those on the losing side of a successful vote to leave the ELCA started a new ELCA mission. If the ELCA didn't keep their new starts such a secret, then this listing wouldn't look so terribly lopsided. Having the names and locations of new ELCA starts would make the situation for the ELCA look better, which would be the truth. It appears that the ELCA is afraid of the truth, even when it makes things look better for them!


Church Name City State Denom status
Christ Lutheran Church Prattville AL ELCA Failed 1st
Agape Lutheran Church Prattville AL LCMC New start
         
Tanque Verde Lutheran Church  Tucson AZ ELCA Failed 2nd
Desert Hope Lutheran Church Tucson AZ LCMC New start
         
Christ our Shepherd Lutheran Church Peachtree City GA ELCA Failed 1st
Word of God Lutheran Church Peachtree City GA NALC/LCMC New start
         
Jerusalem Lutheran Church Rincon GA ELCA Failed 1st
St John’s Lutheran Church Rincon GA ELCA Failed 1st
Bible Lutheran Church Rincon GA LCMC New start
         
St Paul Lutheran Church Monona IA ELCA Failed 2nd
Faith Lutheran Church Monona IA NALC New start
         
Emanuel Lutheran Church Strawberry Point IA ELCA Failed 2nd
Mission in Christ Lutheran Church Strawberry Point IA NALC New start
         
St Johns Lutheran Church American Falls ID ELCA Failed 1st
Shepherd of the Falls Lutheran Church American Falls ID LCMC New start
         
First Evangelical Lutheran Church Idaho Falls ID LCMC Left ELCA
Emmaus Lutheran Community Idaho Falls ID ELCA New ELCA
         
Mt. Calvary Lutheran Church DeSoto IL ELCA Failed 1st
Christ the King Lutheran Church DeSoto IL NALC New start
         
Geneva Lutheran Church Geneva IL ELCA Failed 1st
New Hope Lutheran Church (St Charles) Geneva IL LCMC New start
         
St Paul Lutheran Church Peoria IL ELCA Failed 1st
Living Waters Lutheran Church Peoria IL LCMC New start
         
Luther Memorial Church Quincy IL ELCA Failed 1st
Hope Lutheran Church Quincy IL LCMC New start
         
St Paul Lutheran Church Sterling IL ELCA Failed 1st
New Life Lutheran Church Sterling IL LCMC New start
         
St Martin Lutheran Church Annapolis MD ELCA Failed 2nd
Annapolis Evangelical Lutheran Church Annapolis MD NALC New start
         
Grace Lutheran Church  Hallock MN ELCA Failed 1st
Trinity Lutheran Church  Hallock MN LCMC New start
         
Faith Lutheran Church Hutchinson MN LCMC Left ELCA
River of Hope Lutheran Church Hutchinson MN ELCA New ELCA
         
Nora Lutheran Church Kensington MN ELCA Failed 1st
Kensington Lutheran Church Kensington MN LCMC New start
         
Bethel Lutheran Church Little Falls MN ELCA Failed 1st
First Lutheran Church Little Falls MN ELCA Failed 1st
Faith Lutheran Church Little Falls MN LCMC New start
         
Lord of Life Lutheran Church Ramsey MN ELCA Failed 2nd
Northgate Church Ramsey MN LCMC New start
         
Rushford Lutheran Church Rushford MN LCMC Left ELCA
NOT YET NAMED Rushford MN ELCA New ELCA
         
Sverdrup Lutheran Church  Underwood MN ELCA Failed 1st
Tingvold Lutheran Church  Underwood MN ELCA Failed 1st
Spirit of Hope Lutheran Church Underwood MN LCMC New start
         
Trinity Lutheran Church Watertown MN ELCA Failed 1st
Peace Lutheran Church Churh Watertown MN LCMC New start
         
Resurrection Lutheran Church Kings Mountain NC ELCA Failed 1st
Advent Lutheran Church Kings Mountain NC NALC New start
         
First Lutheran Church Harvey ND ELCA Failed 2nd
Faith Lutheran Church Harvey ND LCMC New start
         
Our Saviour Lutheran Church Dannebrog NE ELCA Failed 1st
Faith Lutheran Church Dannebrog NE NALC New start
         
Faith Lutheran Church Seward NE ELCA Failed 2nd
Living Word Lutheran Church Seward NE LCMC New start
         
Our Saviour’s Lutheran Church Lebanon OR ELCA Failed 2nd
Christ Community Lutheran Church Lebanon OR LCMC New start
         
Concordia Evangelical Lutheran Columbia PA ELCA Failed 1st
NOT YET NAMED Columbia PA Unknown New start
         
Trinity Evangelical Lutheran Church Smethport PA ELCA Failed 1st
Hope Lutheran Church Smethport PA NALC New start
         
Brandon Lutheran Church Brandon SD ELCA Failed 1st
Heritage Lutheran Church Brandon SD NALC/LCMC New start
         
American Evangelical Lutheran Church Milbank SD ELCA Failed 1st
Living Word Lutheran Church Milbank SD LCMC New start
         
Advent Lutheran Church Murfreesboro TN ELCA Failed 1st
New Hope Lutheran Church Murfreesboro TN LCMC New start
         
Martin Luther Lutheran Church Giddings TX LCMC Left ELCA
Grace Lutheran Church Giddings TX ELCA New ELCA
         
Resurrection Lutheran Church Fredericksburg VA ELCA Failed 1st
Celebration Church Fredericksburg VA LCMC New start
         
St John Lutheran Church Edgar WI ELCA Failed 1st
Hope Lutheran Church in Fellowship with Christ Edgar WI LCMC New start
         
Calvary Lutheran Church Minong WI ELCA Failed 1st
New Hope Lutheran Church Minong WI LCMC New start
         
Trinity Evangelical Lutheran Church New London WI ELCA Failed 1st
Shepherd of The River Lutheran Church New London WI LCMC New start

Again, if anyone researches that list and finds an error, let me know and it will be corrected right away. When's the last time you saw anyone on the ELCA website make that statement?

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7 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2011 - 7:41AM #9
tawonda
Posts: 4,367

Bearing false witness again, I see.


Apparently your respect for Scripture begins with  perceived "clobber verses" against gay folks and ends at the Decalogue. Or "Whoever says he loves God but hates his brother is a liar."


I don't hate you. I'm just perplexed at your single-issue obsession with -- nay, hysteria regarding -- homosexuality and your bitterness toward the ELCA for what's a normal means of discussing and arriving at denominational policy.

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7 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2011 - 9:27AM #10
WannabeTheo
Posts: 401

Mar 24, 2011 -- 11:02PM, G_Erdner wrote:


I realize that those who drank the ELCA Kool Aid are convinced that there is no such thing as right or wrong, and that all opinions are equally valid. 





Complete garbage and a wholesale lie.  You made a similar accusation on another thread, and when you were called out on it, you accused the ELCA of embracing a theology of 'works righteousness'.  When you were called out on that, you retreated from the conversation entirely.


The ELCA will not reverse the 2009 CWA.  The losses we've experienced so far are well within expectations, and the churches and people who opposed the decision the most are exactly the ones who have since left the ELCA, making the 2009 decision even firmer.


You are free to collect whatever information you want, but it seems to me this is an unhealthy obsession on your part.


Go in peace; serve the Lord.

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