Mar 12, 2011 -- 8:32PM, Nino0814 wrote:

I do not know if we have a free will or not. The evidence is mounting against the idea.

Interesting conversation. Nino, if you are referring here to scientific evidence, I should point out that science is inherently objective, reductionist and deterministic in its approach. The concepts of consciousness and free will are pretty much the exact opposite of all those qualities. So it should not come as a surprise that when science tries to address these issues, the answer it comes up with is: 'it must all be an illusion.' The conclusion is built into the presuppostions of science.

I'm not saying neuroscience and psychology are wrong or unimportant. Certainly as regards objectively observed behavior, science can explain much. Science much to offer in the areas of medicine, mental health and addictions, artficial intelligence and many other fields. But science is uniquely ill fitted to address the inherently subjective and non-deterministic questions of consciousness and free will, as well as values and morality.

Mar 13, 2011 -- 7:58AM, Nino0814 wrote:

Everyone should condemn the passges that would celebrate ethnic cleansing, and the killing in infants, and young children.

I wonder, if we are just passive observers to the struggles between our intrinsic drives or impulses, then what meaning does 'should' have?

I don't know why this post is getting so much attention.  It's all old hat--a la Bishop Spong, a preacher trying to attract a wider audience in an ego trip, with no real message, just objections to the status quo to get attention.

Grant

How do we deal with the idea that humans, as we know us, existed with dinosaurs as depicted in the Creation Museum in KY?  And where did Adam and Eve's children find others to marry if they were the first and only?  If Jesus taught that Godde loves everyone, was he talking about the god of the Old Testament who was a vile, jealous, destructive character?  Does loving Godde as creator require loving the Bible as Godde's inerrant word?  If so, which translation/edition?

There are many similar questions which Christianity inspires.  For many Christians, asking is an affront to Godde.  A friend who was reared in a fundy church and I discussed this last night.  One simply accepts what the Bible says and the preacher preaches as Godde's word.  There is no alternative.

Many of us didn't grow up with that or violated the "rules" by actually trying to reconcile the Bible with reality as we know it.  Curious people may find the Bible a relic of a previous time which has no bearing on our lives.  Educated people who have learned to reason and accept science as reliable may find the Bible no more than a curiosity.  Lots of people have decided there is nothing of value in "religion" as they see in the followers.

John Spong and others believe there is more to faith than a rigid acceptance, as literal history and fact, of what was written down centuries ago in a different context by people who knew little about the world around them other than Judaism and persecution by Rome.  They believe that Christianity is valuable enough to be worth the effort to pull Jesus's teachings into contemporary society even if it means changing old prejudices, superstitutions and traditional translations.

Until I read Spong, I believed I was alone in my faith.  There are many others like me who accept Jesus without the requirement to adhere to other men's interpretations.  Either Godde loves all of us and urges us to learn to live together peacefully - in fact tells us how to do it - or the message simply doesn't compute and should be abandoned. 

That doesn't mean we are right.  It just means we have made peace with the inconsistencies and contradictions in the Bible and try to live as Jesus taught.  We don't worship the Bible as if it were Godde as so many others seem to do.  And we don't use the Bible to beat up on others or to judge them.  Spong helps me coexist with others in the church who would condemn me.  Must work to some extent as our parish seems to trust me to be Senior Warden.  Even the man who is very much like Grant but believes that those who leave are mistaken.

Mar 14, 2011 -- 7:40PM, AnglicanFirst wrote:

Journeying, man would I love to see Paul destroy Spong in a face-to-face debate!  I'll amuse myself with that image for a while!

Grant

Ok, you do not like Spong's answers, but what do you think of the questions? 

Nino, to my knowlege, Spong provided no answers, just questions.  He was a theological anarchist. (Hey, I just noticed that anarchist and antichrist are very similar!)

Grant