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Switch to Forum Live View BELL RINGS FOR UNIVERSALISM. REVERBERATIONS DETECTED.
3 years ago  ::  Mar 06, 2011 - 7:26AM #1
Dutch777
Posts: 9,113
www.nytimes.com/2011/03/05/us/05bell.html?_r-1

Pro? Con? Indeterminate?

Enjoy.

Comments welcomed.
The Path
To Moon Lake
Doesn't Go
There.

So Walk
Your own Dharma*Path
And Be
Mindful

Dutch
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 06, 2011 - 7:50AM #2
Jupiter6208
Posts: 2,356

Pro.

"A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person."  Dave Berry



You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger. Buddha.

What the heart loves, the will chooses, and the mind justifies.”


― Thomas Cranmer
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 06, 2011 - 11:08AM #3
Spokang
Posts: 941

I've been gravitating toward a pro stance for awhile.


I have a difficult time understanding the "orthodox" position of heaven and hell, that one can only go to heaven if you follow all the correct teaching of the church, believe the right doctrines, but if you don't...it's in the great fire pit with you.  Oh yes, this is only possible through Jesus.


What about all of humanity that God created who never even heard about Jesus or, for that matter,  Yaweh, who ended up in the pit? 


I understand that there is a vague Christian teaching that during the 3 days in the tomb Jesus was supposed to have gone to hell to save those poor souls who, potentially,  had been burning for up to bilions of years, (or only 4000 thousand years if you are a fundamentalist), but it never made much sense to me; all those souls in torment for so long and suddenly get a reprieve. Seems a bit unfair on the whole.  I assume that that mass of humanity included the ancestors of the recently discovered tribes of aboriginals on the Amazon and similar unknow, unreachable humans extending back into unrecorded history who never got a visit from a Baptist, Calvinist, or Anglican missionary?  And Poor Lucy, the oldest known humanoid, probably didn't know what hit her after she kicked the bucket and was thrown into the great fire pit, and all because she never heard of Yahweh. How can orthodox Christianity answer this?


Jim


 

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 06, 2011 - 11:43AM #4
Nino0814
Posts: 1,717

Just as we are now seeing in the Middle East, the power of mass communication is causing ideologies that were held for years to be uprooted.  Informed "Evangelicals" will not be able to "hold onto" the elitist view that Christians alone are elected by God for eternal reward.  They are learning more about the uncertainity of many ideas in our tradition (that were believe to be certain), as they are meeting very thoughtful people (like themselves) who come from other religious traditions.


The publication (in lay person accessible form) of neurological studies will change the way most people understand human consciousness.  IMO the notion that consciousness is separate from the brain, and can survive death, will increasingly be seen as absurd.

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 06, 2011 - 3:18PM #5
Dutch777
Posts: 9,113

I'm "pro" and have been for some time.


Universalism is not a single, narrow position; it has nuances, all  of which drive the fundies into a mouth-foaming frenzy.


I like that.

The Path
To Moon Lake
Doesn't Go
There.

So Walk
Your own Dharma*Path
And Be
Mindful

Dutch
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Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Mar 06, 2011 - 3:46PM #6
byronearnold
Posts: 280

Mar 6, 2011 -- 7:26AM, Dutch777 wrote:

www.nytimes.com/2011/03/05/us/05bell.html?_r-1

Pro? Con? Indeterminate?

Enjoy.

Comments welcomed.



I am pro. I have been for a while as well., Ever since I got re-saved.

Mar 6, 2011 -- 11:43AM, Nino0814 wrote:


Just as we are now seeing in the Middle East, the power of mass communication is causing ideologies that were held for years to be uprooted.  Informed "Evangelicals" will not be able to "hold onto" the elitist view that Christians alone are elected by God for eternal reward.  They are learning more about the uncertainity of many ideas in our tradition (that were believe to be certain), as they are meeting very thoughtful people (like themselves) who come from other religious traditions.


The publication (in lay person accessible form) of neurological studies will change the way most people understand human consciousness.  IMO the notion that consciousness is separate from the brain, and can survive death, will increasingly be seen as absurd.




This question goes beyond the scope of this discussion, so don't bother answering it. Just consider it: Is it not possible that instead of the brain being the source of conciousness, it is not the opposite?


Also, consider this. To the being that created all, the seen and unseen, how dificult is it for Him to preserve one's conscousness after death?


Mar 6, 2011 -- 3:18PM, Dutch777 wrote:


I'm "pro" and have been for some time.


Universalism is not a single, narrow position; it has nuances, all  of which drive the fundies into a mouth-foaming frenzy.


I like that.





My version of Universalism is a cross between Calvinism (4 point calvinism) and Universalism. In my view, the elect are those who God predestined to salvation from before the foundations of the world. The reprobate are consigned to hell for a time. But hell is not permanent or eternal. The punishment will fit the crime. For a man who has only committed a finite lifetime of finite sins, infinite punishment is far from just. And one of God's fundamental attributes is being Just.

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 06, 2011 - 4:50PM #7
Nino0814
Posts: 1,717

Mar 6, 2011 -- 3:46PM, byronearnold wrote:

This question goes beyond the scope of this discussion, so don't bother answering it. Just consider it: Is it not possible that instead of the brain being the source of conciousness, it is not the opposite?



I do not believe that it is possible, as we see how dependent our consciousness is on the brain.  Damage to parts of the brain changes consciousness in funadmental ways.  I recommend Ramachandran's book, "The Tell Tale Brain".  He gives great examples of his patients that show this point.  This would not be the case if the brain was just a receptor of consciousness, as opposed to consciousness being a state derived from the brain.


IMO we are more like a system of impulses than a unified conscious being. Buddhists say we are "dependent arising".  These dependent "things" (even our consciousness) are dependent on others "things" and therefore subject to change.  


 

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 06, 2011 - 5:07PM #8
GRobit625
Posts: 1,976

I'm going to have to go with 'Con'. I'm going to stick with the catechism on this one. Everyone is free to reject or receive Christ into their lives as Lord and Savior. As for someone who NEVER heard the message, I think they would be saved if they lived a virtuous life, but as for someone who outright rejected Him, someone who just said "Screw this, I'm not wasting my time being a Christian anymore blah blah blah", I believe the answer is below.


 


 


Q.     What do we mean by heaven and      hell?


A.     By heaven, we mean eternal life      in our enjoyment of God;
by hell, we mean eternal death in our rejection of God.


 


 


 


 

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 06, 2011 - 5:22PM #9
Nino0814
Posts: 1,717

Mar 6, 2011 -- 5:07PM, GRobit625 wrote:


I'm going to have to go with 'Con'. I'm going to stick with the catechism on this one. Everyone is free to reject or receive Christ into their lives as Lord and Savior. As for someone who NEVER heard the message, I think they would be saved if they lived a virtuous life, but as for someone who outright rejected Him, someone who just said "Screw this, I'm not wasting my time being a Christian anymore blah blah blah", I believe the answer is below.



Why do you believe it? 


If someone decides to live their life without God, such a person should spend eternity being punished in hell?  Never (ever) being reconciled?  

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 06, 2011 - 5:36PM #10
GRobit625
Posts: 1,976

Mar 6, 2011 -- 5:22PM, Nino0814 wrote:


Mar 6, 2011 -- 5:07PM, GRobit625 wrote:


I'm going to have to go with 'Con'. I'm going to stick with the catechism on this one. Everyone is free to reject or receive Christ into their lives as Lord and Savior. As for someone who NEVER heard the message, I think they would be saved if they lived a virtuous life, but as for someone who outright rejected Him, someone who just said "Screw this, I'm not wasting my time being a Christian anymore blah blah blah", I believe the answer is below.



Why do you believe it? 


If someone decides to live their life without God, such a person should spend eternity being punished in hell?  Never (ever) being reconciled?  




 


Jesus died so we wouldn't have to die a second death, if we believe in Him and His teachings. Now, I don't know what happens between each and every person who has passed away at their judgment. I believe at that moment, the individual and God will hash that out. Only God knows what is truly in that person's heart that decided to live without Him. But that has just been the teaching as it is in the Bible that hell and heaven is eternal.

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