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Switch to Forum Live View LDS "Doctrines, Prinicples, Thought, Teachings"
7 years ago  ::  Dec 27, 2010 - 2:07PM #1
Posts: 636

Hi Everyone --

I thought i'd just check back in and see how things are going -- It's so nice to "see" and hear everyone again --

I noticed that there are a couple of discussions that are titled "LDS Doctrine" and "LDS Thought, Teachings....." etc -- but which seem to me to be rather narrowly focused on harranguing against personal prejudices and the "sinfulness" of *others* --

I couldn't help but be reminded of Jesus' directions on the topic:

(Matthew 7:1-5.)

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.  2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.  3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?  4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?  5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye...."

So i thought it might be interesting, more positive and helpful to discuss *actual* LDS Doctrines, Principles, Thought and Teachings" --

Here's one that is especially relevant, since it includes LDS doctrine that is key to (general) LDS theology, yet is often misunderstood, even by many LDS  --

I hope there are some who find this interesting or helpful --



By Gaia

It's often suggested (by some LDS)  that God and Christ are "one" ONLY in terms of 'agreeing" with each other on significant issues.

This is a popular, but FAULTY understanding of LDS doctrine.

To understand a LOT of things about (the LDS idea of ) God,  it's essential to remember that only PART of God's nature is anything like us. He has a physical nature like we do, but He also has a DIVINE nature , which is very much UNlike us (at this point in our eternal development).


Scripture (2 Peter 1:3-4) says:

"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue : Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature..."

So what exactly is this "Divine Nature"???

In addition to His physical, corporeal nature, God also possesses what the scriptures and LDS doctrine refer to as a "Divine Nature" --

Joseph Smith described this dual nature of celestial life in reporting a divine manifestation that he and others were given in January, 1836:

 "The heavens were opened upon us and I beheld the celestial kingdom of God and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out cannot tell. I saw the transcendent beauty of the gate through which the heirs of that kingdom will enter, which was like unto circling flames of fire; also the blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son."

Elsewhere, Joseph taught that God "dwells in everlasting burnings" -- obviously, we're talking about something very UNLIKE us, or anything with which we are acquainted.

"From what has been said thus far, it seems reasonable to conclude that the Holy Spirit is centered in God and constitutes His glory. As a pure and highly capacitated substance, the Holy Spirit partakes of the intelligence of God and is the agent by which divine truth, light, and power are manifested to others. But God's glory, or His Holy Spirit, is not separate from Himself. As part of His total organized being, it constitutes His divine nature by which He is an infinitely spiritual, as well as a corporeal, being."
(Hyrum L. Andrus, “God, Man, and the Universe”  [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1968], 121.)

Man is in the presence of God when he is enveloped in the glory of God and is quickened by that substance -- and it is a "substance", not just "warm fuzzies".  "On such occasions he may or may not be in the presence of God's person. But he is in the presence of God in sense of divine communion when he is enveloped in the glory of God."

For example, in the Pearl of Great Price (PGP) Moses 1:

"And the glory of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his presence."

One way to understand this is to consider a magnet:   A magnet is a tangible object whose magnetic properties extend beyond its physical dimensions to permeate its magnetic field.

Similarly, God is an immanent being who is (as D&C 88 tells us) "in and through all things" by the manifestation of His glory. His glory is as much a part of Him as magnetic properties or forces are essential parts of a magnet.

Just as a magnet would not BE a magnet without its special magnetic properties, so God would not BE God without his Divine Nature.

By means of His divine nature, the Father has a relationship with the cosmos that a mere corporeal being (as we are currently) does not possess; nor can an un-glorified being easily comprehend it.  This, i think, is one of the reasons many people (even LDS) fail to comprehend many important LDS doctrines -- they think of God as being "just like us", and they fail to take into account His Divine Nature.

Because the Father extends His glory -— His divine intelligence and power -— beyond the limits of His body to "fill the immensity of space", the organized cosmos becomes His tabernacle -— the extended body of the divine powers of truth, light, and life that emanate from Him. For this reason, Joseph Smith referred to the elements as being the repository "in which dwells all the glory" of God.

Worship of a personal, corporeal God is thus combined (in LDS thought) with a realistic concept of the *immanence* of divinity within all things. "The elements are the tabernacle of God," a revelation declared --  "yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples."  (D&C 93:35)

Thus, LDS thought *resolves* the (seeming) philosophical dilemma / contradiction of a personal God having a physical, corporeal nature, who is simultaneously "in and through all things" and omnipresent.

Another revelation concerning the immanence of deity within all things (D&C 88)  says:

"He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever. . . .
Behold, all these are kingdoms [of organized life in the cosmos], and any man who hath seen any or the least of these hath seen God moving in his majesty and power. I say unto you, he hath seen him; nevertheless, he who came unto his own was not comprehended."


Thus, to reiterate -- as a glorified being, The Father has a relationship with the universe that mere corporeal beings do not and cannot have, and which they cannot easily understand or appreciate.

And, the same may be said of the divine relationship that exists between the Father and the Son. In his testimony of Christ, John mentioned the divine relationship that came to exist when Christ received the fullness of the Father, saying of Jesus: "And the glory of the Father was with him, for he [i.e., the Father] dwelt in him."

There is an "INDWELLING" relationship that exists between the Father and Son, which is not always understood even by many LDS.
Of this "indwelling" relationship Jesus bore testimony to the Nephites, stating: "I am in the Father, and the Father in me; and in me hath the Father glorified his name."  (3 Nephi 9:15)

Only by understanding this divine indwelling relationship can one comprehend Joseph Smith's concept of deity.

In his Lectures on Faith, Joseph Smith stressed that the full intelligence and power of the Father are centered in the Son so that both divine beings possess --

"...the same divine mind, the same wisdom, glory, power, and fullness -— filling all in all; the SON being filled with the fullness of the mind, glory, and power ; or, in other words, the Spirit, glory, and power , of the Father, possessing all knowledge and glory, and the same kingdom, sitting at the right hand of power, in the express image and likeness of the Father, mediator for man, being filled with the fullness of the mind of the Father ; or, in other words, the Spirit of the Father."

BYU Religion Professor Emeritus Hyrum L Andrus explains thusly:

"The word "mind," as used by the Prophet in the above statement is equated with the word. "Spirit." Thus, the "mind of the Father" is made synonymous with the "Spirit of the Father," and refers to the quickening intelligence, or Spirit that is extended from the Father and developed in its fullness in the Son. Thereby the Father is in the Son, and the Son is in the Father. And since the fullness of the Father's glory (or divine intelligence), with all its divine attributes of life and power, dwells in Christ, the Son possesses the same divine mind or Holy Spirit as the Father."

(Hyrum L. Andrus, God, Man, and the Universe [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1968], 128.)

Thus could John write:
"And I, John, bear record that he received a fullness of the glory of the Father; And he received all power both in heaven and on earth, and the glory of the Father was with him, for he dwelt in him." (D&C 93)

This relationship might be somewhat analogous to a powerful electrical circuit, with the electricity passing without restriction from one pole or center of power to another, and back again.

"But in the case of these two glorified beings, the indwelling substance consists of the Holy Spirit which centers initially in the Father, and constitutes the power of life, light, truth, or Spirit that emanates from God as a glorified being to fill the immensity of space. Being centered initially in the Father, the Holy Spirit is developed in the Son to quicken and endow the Son with the "mind, glory, and power" of the Father, and to give the Son all power in heaven and on earth. Thereby, the two glorified beings are united in one, each possessing the same indwelling Spirit or divine mind as the other."

It's important to understand that Christ does *not* lose His personal identity or will in this "indwelling" relationship, for the basic nature of the divine intelligence with which He is endowed prevents that. And as Joseph Smith taught, "all truth is independent within the sphere of its existence, as all intelligence also; otherwise there can be no existence."

The acquisition of truth and light, or of divine intelligence, leads to independence; and in receiving a fullness of the Father's glory, the Son thus became an independent being possessing all intelligence and power within the Father's kingdom. In addition, the natural affinity that light has to light and that truth has to truth promotes union between the Father and the Son, making them perfectly ONE.

Both independence and union (rather than domination) are thus achieved. The Father and the Son possess two independent wills.

As BYU Professor of Religion James R. Harris, wrote in BYU Studies:
"Thus, through the indwelling divine Spirit, Christ enjoys a perfect union with the Eternal Father of our spirits. ….This communion of the Gods (with which our God, Jesus the Christ, is in perfect union), constitutes a "storehouse" of knowledge and power from which, as a faithful steward of the Gods, Christ may and does constantly and instantly draw."

(“Eternal Progression and the Foreknowledge of God”  by James R. Harris BYU Studies, vol. 8 (1967-1968), Number 1 - Autumn 1967 45.)


Understanding this "Indwelling" relationship between the Father and the Son, we are finally prepared to understand the ultimate Gospel objective for ALL -- to extend this "Indwelling Relationship” to each of us, as we are willing and able to receive it.

"In the great plan of life, man may be glorified in Christ as He has been glorified in the Father, Elohim. A similar relationship in glory as that which exists between the Man of Holiness and Christ will then exist between Christ and man. Jesus therefore explained in a revelation given through Joseph Smith to the Saints: "If you keep my commandments you shall receive of his [i.e., the Father's] fullness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father."

(Hyrum L. Andrus, “God, Man, and the Universe” [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1968], 207.)

THIS is what the scriptures are referring to when they say (Philippians 2:5-6) -

"Let this mind be in you , which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God..."

The LDS idea of the unity that exists among the Gods -- and that will eventually exist among the Gods and those who are exalted -- is much greater than just "agreeing in purpose" -- it is no less than to have the MIND of GOD, yet retain (and contribute!) our own individuality.


Blessings --




Quick Reply
7 years ago  ::  Dec 27, 2010 - 7:43PM #2
Posts: 5,277

Jesse, are you saying that you disagree with Gaia's ideas enough to post a general warning of them, but are not picking up enough details to formulate any specific disagreements?

Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
Quick Reply
7 years ago  ::  Dec 27, 2010 - 9:00PM #3
Posts: 6,091

Mok said; Jesse, are you saying that you disagree with Gaia's ideas enough to post a general warning of them, but are not picking up enough details to formulate any specific disagreements?

I think he is trying forewarn the reader that Gaia often steps over the realm of doctrine and into her own interpretations without saying so.  

Having said that this is an interesting topic. 

I feel there needs to be a clearer separation between the actual being known as the Holy Ghost and this light and mind. I don’t know that I agree with this statement;

“But in the case of these two glorified beings, the indwelling substance consists of the Holy Spirit which centers initially in the Father, and constitutes the power of life, light, truth, or Spirit that emanates from God as a glorified being to fill the immensity of space.”

He is mixing the light which comes from the Father with the Holy Ghost. I believe they are two separate things. The light actually gives life to all things including spirit matter. I believe this light is the intelligences which is spoken of in Sec 93 and is uncreated. The Holy Ghost is a being of pure matter & light and has the calling of being the communication vehicle by which we learn the will of the Father. Paul wrote in Rom 8 that the Spirit bears witness with our spirits.

I just feel the need to keep a trinity of individuals. 

I think the closest I can come to describing the oneness of the Elohim is to refer to the Borg, yes I’m a Trekie. The Borg thought simultaneously they were of one mind but their condition was forced upon them as Satan would. To become one with the Elohim we freely surrendering our wills and as we do the Holy Ghost is able to communicate with us more and more. 

Joseph was first given a seer stone to communicate with God which only worked on the principle of faith and righteousness. As time went on he no longer need the stone because he was drawing closer and closer to the Holy Ghost.       

Wise men still seek him.
Quick Reply
7 years ago  ::  Dec 27, 2010 - 10:00PM #4
Posts: 636

Dec 27, 2010 -- 7:43PM, moksha8088 wrote:

Jesse, are you saying that you disagree with Gaia's ideas enough to post a general warning of them, but are not picking up enough details to formulate any specific disagreements?


That's a very perceptive question, Moksha --

Evidently, Jesse couldn't really find much *doctrinally* to dispute my post, so instead,  he had to post yet another, "EEK -- She's maybe a WICCAN PRIESTESS SO DON"T PAY ANY ATTENTION TO HER!"

As you know, Moksha -- I continue to retain my membership in the LDS Church, as always, since the day of my Baptism and Confirmation  over 40 years ago (after being dis-owned by my family for telling them my intention to join the Church) -- And i have a fine relationship with my Bishop.  Since Jesse evidently needs to be reminded that in FACT and according to LDS DOCTRINE, my Bishop is indeed the only one with a "Stewardship" interest in and over my relationship with the Church, i think that is all i should be required to say on that here.

However, since Jesse (and a couple of others like him)  have now challenged me (more than once) on a) whether i "belong" here and whether i am "anti-Mormon" -- I think it may be helpful for any "Newbies" here, to hear what other Members have said about me and my contributions to the LDS Beliefnet site, over the years -- and whether they think i'm "Anti-Mormon" (or post that way)  in general -- so here are a few of those comments:

LDS Messages To/ About Gaia

MOKSHA - Monitor of B-Net LDS Discussions:
Gaia should be considered a treasure on these forums for her knowledge of the LDS Church. She is very right in pointing out the numerous times that she has defended the Church on the debate forum and we do owe her our gratitude on that.

*   *   *

The truth is not popular. Never has been and never will be. Christ was kicked out of his own church for speaking the truth. You are so busy looking for what you don't agree with in Gaia that you can't even see the value and contribution she makes to this site.
The one thing I know about her is that she has integrity. It's something you could polish up on!

*  *   *

29 out of 31  
Hello Gaia:

Thank you for the welcome. I have been reading the board for a while, but just decided to register and post. I enjoy learning from others and a spirited debate.

Reading your posts over the last year has ‘taught’ me a lot about Mormonism, more importantly than that your posts have shown me how to ‘look’ at things in a new way. I first came across Beliefnet while doing 'internet research' on the Adam/God 'theory,' and needless to say your posts were very, very good.

*  *   *   *

BTW, I wouldn't be surprised if, given just enough time, Gaia whipped out with something else to shatter your theories with; given time she seems to be able to find stuff on just about everything.

*  *   *

I am very pleased with this discussion as well. Even though you are not an active member, you do a great service to the LDS church. I think it helps to realize that I don't always have the full understanding of something and could be wrong in my approach so I like to at least keep myself open to that posibility.

I know some mormons (such as Lookbeyond) have written me off as a lost cause because I drive them nuts, but those who have written me off don't give me any real answers. You have done so and I have a lot of respect for you becuase of that. I know you and I don't agree on many things, but you are well learned and articulate well.

Also, thank you for your response on plural wives and polygamy.

*  *   *

11/29/04 9:15 AM  26 out of 27  

Although I have not posted very much on this board lately, I have been a regular poster/observer for a few years. In my experience, we are fortunate to have such a knowledgeable and even-handed person as Gaia for a resource. If a doctrine of the LDS church needs to be defended, she will honestly do so. On the other hand, if a stance has been taken either officially or not by the LDS chuch, Gaia will also truthfully present the facts. Above all, she presents her facts and/or opinions with a commendable integrity.   

*  *   *

12/31/04 1:53 PM  38 out of 39  

Excellent posts regarding issues that cause people to doubt or reject the LDS Church.

Once again, you have raised the level of dialog here. 

*  *  *

1/20/05 2:06 PM  27 out of 29  
Thanks, Gaia, for your interesting and thought-provoking posts. Keep up the good work!

*  *   *

1/20/05 2:43 PM  29 out of 29  
It is true that Gaia, for reasons of her own, no longer closely associates with the Church, but at the same time, she remains a member and the Church has not chosen to dissociate itself from her; I think that it is important to observe that distinction.

I perceive Gaia's historical assertations (which, by the way, I have not yet found any to be factually false) to be useful reminders that our testimonies of the restored gospel and of our divinely led leaders need to be fully informed. Latter-day Saints who deny past realities can have their testimonies shaken when confronted with these uncomfortable facts. On the other hand, encountering this kind of information in a relatively 'safe' place, such as a free-and-open exchange of ideas here at Beliefnet, can help fortify our testimonies of God's work and word as we study, search, ponder and pray for inspiration for ourselves.

For this reason, I think that Gaia's message, though sometimes uncomfortable (and admittedly, somewhat agendized), is valuable, and would not want her voice banished from this discussion board. At the same time, I think it is important that people enter into discourse with civility, respect, and perhaps a modicum of curiousity, willing to seek "Why do you think that way?" rather than "eek! You're wrong and going to hell for it." 

*  *  *

1/20/05 12:49 PM  59 out of 63  

I have a lot of respect for your beliefs and comments here on BNet. You seem very open to looking at hard issues with "new" eyes.
*  *  *

Great research. Your posts are always to the point and insightful, be they for or against the church

*  *  *

1/20/05 4:09 PM  2 out of 5  
Oh goodness, you're an adult. Can't you function without someone criticizing what you believe?

FYI, Gaia has on MORE THAN ONE OCCASION (and honestly, more than ten or twenty) defended this church against those who would LIE to bring it down.

You gonna hammer her for telling the truth?

Talk about a shaky testimony... 

*  *  *

1/20/05 2:14 AM  11 out of 16  
I read three participants here today that could not post here if a too literal interpretation of the above description was instituted. One of them, was an ever loyal critic from the Debate forum and I removed his post. Another, SonOFLDS, is considering renewing ties to the faith of his Father, wrote a supportive post and it was very well received. The third  (Gaia) was our own defacto Historian, whose quest to honor the true makes her much more of our ally than foe.
*  * *

1/19/05 9:57 PM  4 out of 4  
Gaia: thanks for a very informative explanation. 

*  *  *

DORJEM:  2-1-05, 30 out of 39

I am a seeker of truth, I can't possibly see how any one could find fault with GAIA's research and responses if they were a lover of truth. She is probably the most objective person who post here. It doesn't matter whether she agree's with it or not. She has an amazing gift.

*  *  *

11/1/2004 1:40 PM  17 out of 32  
By the way Gaia, well researched and well done.

This could be an interesting topic as there are many changes to not only doctrine but scripture.

Keep 'em coming.


*  *  *

3/30/2005 4:16 PM  20 out of 32  
Bless you, Gaia, for your labors. This has been revealing, to say the least. I only hope that it reaches the eyes of those whose minds are open to truth.   

*  *  *

3/31/2005 2:00 PM  31 out of 32  
Gaia, your posts are such a breath of fresh-air. When it comes to your torch of honesty that you shine, you are definitely Mme Sophia. Keep it up. Peace. :)   

*  *  *
Continued on the following "page"  --

Quick Reply
7 years ago  ::  Dec 27, 2010 - 10:27PM #5
Posts: 636

Comments on Gaia's Contributions to LDS Beliefnet:

 (Part 2)

4/2/2005 5:46 PM  22 out of 23  
As always, such wise advice, Gaia. We are all keeping curious and her husband in our prayers tho perhaps not all with the same result in mind.
*  *  *

 "Samantha Harris" <>  Add to Address Book
Subject: Greetings, my wise one
Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 13:47:40 -0500
I read your post to Curious on beliefnet, and I just wanted to thank
you for being such a force of peace in the world. Those who would deny the
truth of what you say about their spiritual paths meeting needs that they have (some claim to have no needs, just a conviction and belief in Jesus...good for them), I feel they don't understand.

You're just so wise, given all that you've been through, just as bad as others who have left, in some cases a lot worse, and yet you are so grounded and so loving. I really appreciate your presence, and I want you to know that a few of your writings are in my journal, they sustain me, and have answered questions that I have. I believe that God uses any avenue to communicate with man. For LDS and those who are not of our faith be they those who have left or those who are curious, you are a WIDE avenue. Thanks for that.

It's often frustrating to deal with those who have left who don't see LDS as anything other than mindless clones. I wonder if I was like that. If so, may God forgive me. I recall the anger, I still feel it over the same issues, but as you have so aptly put it, this faith meets needs that I have.

None other does. So, in the face of all I feel to be unjust, I persevere. I hope that doing so (and being vocal about it) may make the journey more fruitful for those who come after me. It sucks sometimes, but I can't keep running away from life...only to end up in the same pattern that I left, only in another form. I just wanted to let you know how appreciated you are.

Just a little note,


*  *  *

6/12/2005 12:23 AM  244 out of 333  
 You are, in contrast, a virtual font of knowledge. Most of us sincerely appreciate your highly articulate and documented posts.

Please remember your audience is far larger than Linda or even of those of us who post here regularly. There are literally dozens, perhaps even hundreds of lurkers who pass this way weekly and enjoy your significant contributions.

Please don't be too hard on Linda. I personally believe she serves a greater purpose than even she knows, and certainly not in the way she would think.  

*  *  *

7/6/2005 7:18 PM  23 out of 23  
Gaia; Are you kidding? Catching a historical inaccuracy in one of your posts is like beating Ken Jennings at Jeopardy:)

I'll take Martin Luther for $1000 Alex!
*  *  *

7/9/2005 5:09 PM

Gaia, you are one of those very rare people who can lovingly and affectionately call someone a jerk and be gushingly thanked for it.
*  *  *

7/16/2005 1:56 PM  18 out of 20  
Listen up, Summer. Gaia has forgotten more than you will likely ever know about the history of the LDS church. Even though she is no longer an actively practicing Mormon, she has provided a great deal of information to readers of these boards and none of us are better informed that she is.
*  *  *

Fallen by the Sword 7-16-05 7:26 PM

Gaia, if she is ‘ex,’ is an exception precisely because she has ‘shown’ me through her posts that she is fair. Even though I disagree strongly with her on some of her ‘conclusions.’ I think she is very fair in presenting the pro and the con.

*  *  *

10/17/2005 1:48 PM  49 out of 55  
Gaia is one of those people who has been where you have been (had a testimony) and suffered things you do not know of. She has seen things that you have not seen. She has seen through more closed doors than you have seen through open. I would recommend that you not shut her out. I do not mean that you have to except everything she says because it is by the spirit that we know these things but much of what she has learned of the church is through the church, it may have been miss-interpreted but she does know much. Of course we know that it is not upon our knowledge that we should judge these things but many times these things were a part of her experience.

*  *   *

10/17/2005 5:19 PM  54 out of 55  
I don't agree a lot with Gaia, as an ex-Mormon who is totally sold out to and committed to Jesus Christ I see many of her views as very lacking from that perspective.

Having said that, she is very well read and very capable of arguing her points (this is a debate board remember). She has some good information and some which I believe is bad information. But you have to actually talk with her and think for yourself to determine what that is. Gaia is a kind person who will state her mind. Don't ignore her, she is a worth while member of this little community --

*  *   *

10/17/2005 11:41 PM  62 out of 62  
I'd like to add my 2 cents with regard to Gaia. I completely agree with what others have posted. You will not find on this board a more genuine or honest person than she. While I may not always agree with her, I cannot help but respect her for the following reasons:

1. She states what she genuinely believes.
2. She will post in support or opposition to the church as she sees on any given issue.
3. She sticks to issues far better than most.
4. She is intelligent, literate, and articulate.
5. She is as knowledgeable as anyone on matters of the church, and more so than most who post here.
6. She backs up her position with documentation better than anyone here.
7. Usually, she lets the venom that sprays her way roll off like water off a duck's back.
8. I look forward to reading her posts, because more often than not, I'm going to learn something.
9. She has credibility to spare, having been a convert, educated at BYU, including at least one advanced degree, having served in a variety of church capacities that most members never dream of, and eventually having the courage of her convictions to leave the church.

And finally ... she shows more patience and consideration to some of the most ignorant and ill-mannered people on this board than anyone. And for that alone, she deserves to be treated with respect.  

*  *  *

12/10/2005 1:10 PM  4 out of 7  
Yeah, you're the know all, aren't you Gaia?

Actually, yes - she is.  

 *    *   *    *

12/10/2005 1:12 PM  5 out of 7  
Deren, Gaia knows what she is talking about, as do others here.

*     *      *      *      * 

12/10/2005 1:13 PM  6 out of 7  
"Yeah, you're the know all, aren't you Gaia?"

i think everyone here has already told you that they think that gaia is just about the least biased, most knowledgeable person here, but i'd like to give it a try. you are acting foolish, and your threads aren't as epic and mindblowing as you seem to think.

 *      *      *       *       *

And finally, here's an example of the kind of message i tend to write -- This one was to to "Curious" who had just gone through a very painful and frustrating disillusionment regarding the Church, and was feeling all the anger, hurt and outrage that disillusionment can often cause.  My intention here was to help her begin dealing with (and healing from)  that, and to encourage her to begin developing a personal spirituality that would help facilitate that Healing.

4/2/2005 5:35 PM  20 out of 23  
But what happened next is really interesting. Gaia, is really the only one I have to apologize now to,
... You see all the while I was slamming Gaia for her quoting early church leaders, (thinking she was an anti-Mormon and her quotes were lies and or out of context) when you read the horrible truth on church approved cd-rom from deseret book things really come into perspective.

*  *   *

Hello my dear Sister Curious --
I have so many conflicting feelings as i read your post. I am of course gratified and grateful that you finally realize i was not lying, misrepresenting the truth or trying to steal your testimony, which i know was precious to you. I am glad you know now that i was speaking the truth.

I am sorrier than i can say, that you have to go through the difficult, painful experience of "awakening" , and disillusionment, and perhaps even feelings of betrayal, that accompany that "awakening", when we finally decide to do the research for ourselves and discover what we must.

I am sorry for whatever grief and pain this will cause you, your family, and others you care about, and who care about you. Believe me, i know how dificult a time this can be.

I hope you know that as i spoke the truth before, i speak the truth (as i know and have experienced it) now:

First, my heart and prayers are with you; And Second, while this will naturally be a time of grieving and mourning for what you have lost, and healing from the pain of betrayal and loss; it can eventually become a New Beginning for you as well --
The beginning of the "grand adventure" toward a more personally meaningful, vital spirituality.

May i offer a few thoughts and suggestions -- take or leave as you see fit -- Please forgive if they are overly maternal, presumptuous, etc; And please don't be surprised (or offended!) if some of this is as hard to take as other things i've said {rueful grin} --

1. Be very, very careful, to beware slipping into just another bunch of "easy answers" offered by some *other* ( especially "anti-LDS")  group/ system / religion. That is very easy to do, when you are spiritually and emotionally vulnerable.

There is a *reason* why some of us are so attracted to Mormonism and what it offers, why it "grabs" us so strongly, and we hold on so tightly -- and it has to do with OUR OWN emotional, psychological, spiritual needs. At the time, We *needed* a system to provide us with The Answers, The Way, A Prophet, A Plan....etc, etc, etc.

We don't suddenly lose all those deep-seated needs, when we realize that the church -- as a very human organization, and humans tend to be flawed)  has problems! They're still there, motivating us, often only vaguely, partly consciously, mostly sub-consciously; and they will DRIVE you to look for and FIND yet another version of The Answer, unless you are *very* careful, and work on resolving whatever those needs and issues are within you, that drove you to need those things in Mormonism.

2. Beware demonizing the Church. Some of the anger, frustration, betrayal and all that we feel in the beginning is entirely justified, natural, and perhaps even necessary to break our addiction to (what is problematical in)  the System.

It's like when we're teenagers, our "developmental task" is to break away from our parents and begin to develop an independent Self; and to do that, we must fight to break free of them and everything they represent, to figure out where they "end" and where we "begin", and who we are going to be, independent of them.  That is perfectly natural and appropriate.

So now you are having to "break away" from the Church and develop an independent Self, to figure out who YOU are and want to be, and what your spirituality will be, apart and independent of the (very faithful & devout) Mormon you used to be.

But be careful not to take that several steps too far and make the Church the "fall guy", the scapegoat for everything "bad" that happened to you -- don't make it a demon.

Remember: you were in a "dance" *together* with it; it could not have "enticed" you if you had not been entirely *willing* to be enticed.

The Church is no more Satanic than it is Godly; it is no more evil than it is perfect. It has its strengths and its weaknesses. If you want to have a healthy relationship with it for the next several decades, rather than have it gradually eat away at you (ala a few follks on here, who i'm sure you'll recognize -- they cannot speak of the Church without the bile rising and spilling over, coating everything they say about it)  --

-- You must recognize this, and come to peace with it. It *served* you for some time. It no longer does. Release it, with thanks for the blessings and joys, gifts and opportunities, stability and direction, and very welcome (perhaps even needed) ANSWERS that it gave you, when you *needed* those things. Some of that will remain useful, some of which you will even take with you as a *part* of you. Heal and recover from the bad stuff -- get help with that if you need to, -- but release it all and let it go.

3. Design a spirituality that is consistent with and appropriate for the "new", wiser you, that will feed your heart, mind, spirit and soul; give you comfort, direction, and joy; but know that you will likely outgrow THAT sooner or later too --  and give yourself permission to do so.

Beware needing to "pin down" ANSWERS; learn to enjoy the Questions, and find some joy and delight in the Mysteries for which you have no answers.

I hope you'll forgive whatever of that is inappropriate --

Please stick around -- your wisdom and experience will be so valuable here. If you need to take a "break" do so, but please come back when and as you can.

Blessings, dear Sister --

*       *       *        *


If you've gotten this far, i thank you for your amazing patience and persistence! Wink

I hope these two posts will help anyone wondering whether they should give much credence to Jesse's "warnings" about me, or wondering about  my integrity and my intentions toward this Group and its Members --

Blessings  to All -


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7 years ago  ::  Dec 28, 2010 - 9:46AM #6
Posts: 6,091


Using unworthy as character  reference is hardly a good selling point. She is a hardcore anti Mormon and you fed her all she wanted to hear. And Kemmer the anti Mormon gay Catholic? What kind of reference is he?

Let’s look at unworthy’s list;

1. She states what she genuinely believes.

We all do that, we don’t post here to lie about what we believe.

2. She will post in support or opposition to the church as she sees on any given issue.

We all do that, but you seemed to find more in opposition than in support. I too have saved little tidbits 

“In the middle of a discussion on how the Tanners lied Gaia popped in with this comment to ChrystlePistle. 
You said, "the leaders don't lie." I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but the fact is, they most certainly DO LIE . LDS leaders repeatedly claim that women are not given the Priesthood.”

Calling the Prophets liars was the last straw for me and that’s when I started looking up your quotes and found you had been the one doing the lying!  
As I remember it before I could write my reply to you I had to strip away all of the hate and venom you were dispelling toward the Lord’s chosen leaders so I could focus on the actual quotes.

4. She is intelligent, literate, and articulate.

All the intelligence in the world directed toward one’s own misguided agenda doesn’t make one wise or right. 

5. She is as knowledgeable as anyone on matters of the church, and more so than most who post here.

You have taken the knowledge you have and twisted it to fit your own agenda.  

6. She backs up her position with documentation better than anyone here.

There is where you fail miserable! Your documentation turned out to be fraudulent when you misrepresent what Joseph taught about women and the priesthood.

 8. I look forward to reading her posts, because more often than not, I'm going to learn something.

Yes more ammunition for her anti Mormon dribble on the debate boards.

9. She has credibility to spare, having been a convert, educated at BYU, including at least one advanced degree, having served in a variety of church capacities that most members never dream of, and eventually having the courage of her convictions to leave the church.

You destroyed the trust others placed in you by your attacks on the prophets, the deliberate twisting of truth and miss quoting.  

There really is no reason for anyone to trust you. 

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I’d better not say anything more. 

Wise men still seek him.
Quick Reply
7 years ago  ::  Dec 28, 2010 - 10:07AM #7
Posts: 636


LOL --  *everyone* has somebody they don't like, or with whose position they take issue --

That's why i went to the trouble to post "references" from a wide range of people, with every sort of attitude and feeling toward the LDS Church, from devout believers and "defenders", to "questioners", to "ex-LDS"  -- 

 In case you didn't understand, that was the entire POINT:  If only one "side" of the issue thinks you're fair, truthful and helpful, that's pretty much a sign that you're entirely prejudiced about and co-opted by one side!

I guess you were so focused upon objecting to and finding fault with  "UnworthyOne" that you didn't see the (very positive) comments from MOksha, Dorjem, GrannyGail, Brentley, Ironhold, or any of the other faithful, committed LDS folks here.....

I am very humbled, happy and proud that people from *every*  perspective have found me to be (and testified that i am)  someone who posts *fairly*, with worthwhile material, relevant "backup" information, quotes and references, and (especially) with personal integrity. 

 I(n fact --  THANKS again to ALL those who have sent these wonderful Messages -- INCLUDING "UnworthyOne"!


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7 years ago  ::  Dec 28, 2010 - 10:47AM #8
Posts: 636


BTW -- I have to smile at the tagline you're using:  "Wise men still seek him" --

You might want to do a bit of research on those "Wise Men":  You could start here:

"The word Magi comes from the greek word 'magos' (where the english word 'magic' comes from).   Magos itself comes from the old persian word 'Magupati'. This was the title given to priests in a sect of the ancient persian religions such as Zoroastrianism.

[NOTE:  What was Zoroastrianism?  From

“The religion was founded by Zarathushtra in Persia -- modern-day Iran. It may have been the world's first monotheistic faith. It was once the religion of the Persian empire, but has since been reduced in numbers to fewer than 200,000 today. Most religious historians believe the the Jewish, Christian and Muslim beliefs concerning God and Satan, the soul, heaven and hell, the virgin birth of the savior, slaughter of the innocents, resurrection, the final judgment, etc. were all derived from Zoroastrianism.]

Today we'd called the “Wise Men”  astrologers. Back then astronomy and astrology were part of the same overall studies (and 'science') and went hand in hand with each other. The magi would have followed the patterns of the stars religiously. ....."

Neither Jewish nor Christian, those “Wise Men” were actually ASTROLOGERS.


Quick Reply
7 years ago  ::  Dec 31, 2010 - 9:35PM #9
Posts: 14,464

Dec 28, 2010 -- 10:07AM, Gaia-j wrote:

I am very humbled, happy and proud that people from *every*  perspective have found me to be (and testified that i am)  someone who posts *fairly*, with worthwhile material, relevant "backup" information, quotes and references, and (especially) with personal integrity. 

 I(n fact --  THANKS again to ALL those who have sent these wonderful Messages -- INCLUDING "UnworthyOne"!


I'm a little disappointed with myself for not having been vocal enough in support of Gaia to be quoted in this extensive list.

Gaia places truth above all else.

I believe that is what God would expect us to do.

of COURSE this is not going to sit well with those who would place church above all else.

having read God, Man, and Universe cover to cover twice... I have zero doubt Gaia has associated with the mosted learned of church members in existence, AND had access to the most extensive resources anywhere.

each person must ask themselves what they value most

and those who value truth most... can recognize it in others.

I dream in my lifetime uhmericans will come to realize hezbollah, hamas, and isis gain followers by helping society AND the only way to defeat them is to perform greater good.

the average person is 8 times more likely to be murdered by a cop than a radical terrorist
Quick Reply
7 years ago  ::  Jan 01, 2011 - 2:44AM #10
Posts: 636

Thanks so much for those kind words, Aka_me --

I wish i could express just what they -- and the support that *everyone* in this thread has given me! --  mean to me. 

And i'd also like to note, how wonderful it is to see so many different folks, from so many different "points" along the entire "spectra" of spiritual, political and social attitudes and values -- agreeing.  It gives me great hope that eventually, we humans might just mature enough to learn how to respect, appreciate, and even *value* our differences, instead of fearing them, and encouraging hostilities because of them!

Blessings to you -- 


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