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Switch to Forum Live View specifically for wonderingwithawe but anyone can explain this to me...
4 years ago  ::  Aug 13, 2010 - 5:01PM #1
Violets_sorrow
Posts: 19

just because you "never were taught that" doesnt mean that thousands werent for years and years. this stuff doesnt just go away because SWK changed doctrine. 


 


Mormon General Authority Alvin R. Dyer teaching missionaries in Norway:


“We have talked a lot about missionary work and heard the testimonies of those who have spoken. I want to talk to you a little bit now about something that is not missionary work, and what I say is NOT to be given to your investigators by any matter of means.... Why is it that you are white and not colored? Have you ever asked yourself that question? Who had anything to do with your being born into the Church and not born a Chinese or a Hindu, or a Negro? Is God such an unjust person that He would make you white and free and make a Negro CURSED under the CURSING OF CAIN that he should not hold the Priesthood of God?...“I want to talk to you just briefly about this, not with any information that you would convey to your investigators, but that you, yourselves, may have a better understanding of what we are doing in the mission field today... There were three divisions of mankind in the pre-existence, and when you are born into this life, you are born into one of these three divisions of people. There is an imposed judgment placed upon everyone who leaves the Spirit World just the same as there will be when they leave this life and go into one of three places. When they left the Spirit World, they had already been judged by what they had done in the Spirit World and in their previous life. From what judgment is determined how they shall be born in this life? When you understand that, you know that God is not unjust to cause a righteous spirit to be born as a CURSED member of the BLACK RACE or to be CURSED as one of the other people who have been CURSED. Everything is in order. The procreation of man is orderly and in accordance with the plan of life and salvation. “In keeping with this thought, when Noah went into the Ark, here again he took with him his three sons—one representing the CURSED LINEAGE.... Those who have been cursed in the pre-existence were born through this lineage of Ham. “I suppose, and you may have often heard missionaries say it or have asked the question: Why is a Negro a Negro? And, you have heard this answer. 'Well, they must have been neutral in the pre-existence or they must have straddled the fence. That is the most common saying—they were neither hot nor cold, so the Lord made them Negroes. This, of course, is not true. The reason that spirits are born into Negro bodies is because those spirits rejected the Priesthood of God in the pre-existence. This is the reason why you have Negroes upon the earth. “You will observe that when Cain was influenced by the power of Lucifer to follow him...Cain rejected the counsel of God. He rejected again the Priesthood as his forebearers had done in the pre-existence. Therefore, the curse of the pre-existence was made institute through the loins of Cain. Consequently, you have the beginning of the race of men and women into which would be born those in the pre-existence who had rejected the Priesthood of God....Ham reinstated the curse of the pre-existence when he rejected the Priesthood of Noah, and in consequence of that he preserved the curse on the earth. Therefore, the Negroes to be born thereafter, or those who were to become Negroes, were to be born through the loins of Ham. “All of this is according to a well worked-out plan, that these millions and billions of spirits awaiting birth in the pre-existence would be born through a channel or race of people. Consequently, the cursed were to be born through Ham.... The cursed people are the descendants of Ham. The chosen people are the descendants of Shem... Through these lineages thespirits that compare with their station are born in this life. This is why you have colored people, why you have dark people and why you have white people.... “I don't know whether the knowledge or the revelation of these things will have an effect upon you as a missionary, but I know that it has an effect upon me,...the day will come when you know who you are, because you are a person of nobility. You may not fully know that now, but you were a person of nobility in the pre-existence. If you were not, you would have been born into one of these other channels, and you would not have been born in this day and age, because the Lord has withheld the CHOICE spirits of the pre-existence to come forth in this, the last dispensation,... I wanted you to know the reason why you are preaching the Gospel. There is a purpose behind it and knowing this as you do and knowing your NOBILITY—what kind of a missionary are you going to be from this day to the end of your mission?... “I have always thought and have proven the point many times that if you will place into the mind of a boy or a girl, firmly, that they are noble persons born of noble heritage in the pre-existence, they will never stoop to anything that is sordid.... I have made known to you today something you may not have known before, but you know them now because the Spirit bears record. “May the Lord bless you in it and bless you with this knowledge. I bear record of its truthfulness in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.” (“For What Purpose?,” a talk given by Alvin R. Dyer at the Missionary Conference in Oslo, Norway, March 18, 1961, printed in The Negro in Mormon Theology, pp. 48-58)

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 13, 2010 - 7:43PM #2
Ironhold
Posts: 11,459

So what, exactly, is your point?


That the church once did something most other Christian faiths have done over the years?

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 13, 2010 - 9:12PM #3
Violets_sorrow
Posts: 19

non-responsive.


im addressing the so called "one true church" that has taught some of the most vile racism i've ever heard by "prophets, seers and revelators".  why did they teach those things? how did it serve the church? how did it serve whites? how did it serve non white people? And why do you think the church didnt want non white people to know how mormons viewed themselves-as nobility?

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 13, 2010 - 10:37PM #4
Ironhold
Posts: 11,459

Aug 13, 2010 -- 9:12PM, Violets_sorrow wrote:


non-responsive.


im addressing the so called "one true church" that has taught some of the most vile racism i've ever heard by "prophets, seers and revelators".  why did they teach those things? how did it serve the church? how did it serve whites? how did it serve non white people? And why do you think the church didnt want non white people to know how mormons viewed themselves-as nobility?





For some of the "later" stuff (1960s or so) all appearances indicate that we're dealing with people who were abusing their positions in order to speak their own opinion.


Beforehand (particularly the 1800s) you need to be mindful of the period of time in which things took place.

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 13, 2010 - 10:40PM #5
MMCSFOX
Posts: 1,539

So what, exactly, is your point?


Iron, the point is simply about the standard stuff that anyone can copy and past from anti-LDS web sites, for those who need to build up their Ego by putting others down.  So often they are simply driven by hate and feel a need to criticize people and things they have not made an effort to understand. Sadly, honesty and fairness is not the rule to those with hate in their hearts.  Rather than arguing with them it is best to remember them in our prayers as nothing else works.


Jesse F.


*


"It’s important that people should know what you stand for. It’s equally important that they know what you won’t stand for."
-Mary H. Waldrip


 

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 13, 2010 - 11:18PM #6
maniya
Posts: 54

I think it's best explained by the typical arrogance and ego people have. 


Being in the early sixties, this man was also a product of his times and life experience...when many white people were resistant to the idea of black equality. 


The same thing exists today on more subtle levels.  Whenever we meet someone new, most people immediately make a judgement regarding that new person.  We decide if they are prettier than us, better spoken than us, worth our time in talking with them, etc.  We tend to categorize and rank everyone.  Unless we are constantly vigilant in being open to others, and willing to accept everyone's inherent value, we fall into the trap of judging them.  Often we judge in a way that we are portrayed favorably to others.


For example, my art teacher made a humourous comment about this tendency.  He considers himself a geeky nerdy type and when he comes across some gorgeous, rich, hot actor type (living in the Hollywood area, it's bound to happen), he tells himself, "yah, you may be all that, but I bet I can paint landscapes better than you can!"  It's a way of validating himself. 


Of course, some people take this tendency to the extreme, which is what racism is.  Thinking because I have less melatonin in my skin, I am better than you, therefore deserve more, have more authority, am smarter, more noble, and so on.  It's quite ridiculous to categorize people this way, but it's a very human tendency.  Skin color is immediately visible--unlike my art teachers vast artistic talent.


The problem is when someone like this man feels so strongly about his superiority that he concludes that his strong feelings must be from God.  The Spirit is a powerful influence, and sadly at times people confuse their own strong thoughts and feelings with the Spirit's influence. 


No matter what someone is saying, in fact ESPECIALLY if they claim they are speaking for God, God expects us to reason it out and validate it with a confirmation of it's truth for ourselves.  Anyone, even a church leader, can blather on about some nonsense topic they hold near and dear.  It's up to us to determine it's truth, and whether or not we should follow their counsel. 


A true testimony is not based on someone else's claims of what is truth, but is based on our direct interaction with God telling our hearts and minds "yes, this is true" or..."be careful of what this person is saying, they are confused."


Hopefully those missionaries took what he was saying with a grain of salt.


So, maybe you have discovered that the Church is Christ's true church, but that not every single word spoken within the church is God's word.  The discrepancy lies in the fact that we are imperfect people trying to run a perfect church.  We fall short many times.  I trust that when Christ comes to earth again, and is physically present, these sorts of issues won't happen. 

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 13, 2010 - 11:35PM #7
Violets_sorrow
Posts: 19

Aug 13, 2010 -- 10:40PM, MMCSFOX wrote:


So what, exactly, is your point?


Iron, the point is simply about the standard stuff that anyone can copy and past from anti-LDS web sites, for those who need to build up their Ego by putting others down.  So often they are simply driven by hate and feel a need to criticize people and things they have not made an effort to understand. Sadly, honesty and fairness is not the rule to those with hate in their hearts.  Rather than arguing with them it is best to remember them in our prayers as nothing else works.


Jesse F.


*


"It’s important that people should know what you stand for. It’s equally important that they know what you won’t stand for."
-Mary H. Waldrip


 





and please tell me you are talking abt Dyer building up his own ego and not me...i never said this stuff and passed it off as the Lords plan....


also...how can it be "anti" if it plainly and simply came from a GA? there is no doctrine that says reason it out!!!! what ever happened to obeying the order "when the prophet has spoken the thinking has been done??"

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 13, 2010 - 11:39PM #8
Violets_sorrow
Posts: 19

Aug 13, 2010 -- 10:37PM, Ironhold wrote:


Aug 13, 2010 -- 9:12PM, Violets_sorrow wrote:


non-responsive.


im addressing the so called "one true church" that has taught some of the most vile racism i've ever heard by "prophets, seers and revelators".  why did they teach those things? how did it serve the church? how did it serve whites? how did it serve non white people? And why do you think the church didnt want non white people to know how mormons viewed themselves-as nobility?





For some of the "later" stuff (1960s or so) all appearances indicate that we're dealing with people who were abusing their positions in order to speak their own opinion.


Beforehand (particularly the 1800s) you need to be mindful of the period of time in which things took place.





you have 'later' in quotes....why? also, based on your assessment that this was probably as abuse of power-why were so many GA's abusing their power for years and years?? why were they not stopped? if racism is wrong why would Lord allow his mouthpeices to continue to teach it?


you also never answered my question as to how keeping non whites from temples and the priesthood benefitted both white and non whites.

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 14, 2010 - 1:21AM #9
imbobbbb
Posts: 226

Well violet,It's kind of pointless to ask for others opinions if you aren't interested in their answers.Most people in the church are capable of accepting that some leaders of the lds church,{along with most other christian churches],have believed and taught things in the past on racial issues that they were wrong about.If you are incapable of reconciling that lds leaders can be wrong then I don't know what to suggest to you.You will have to decide for yourself whether the lds is the' true church' or if any church can meet your standards of perfection from its leaders.I think church leaders from many churches have 'inferred' things from their reading of the bible that aren't there.In the lds church we have some additional books for leaders and members to infer and speculate about that they convince themselves are true.....even if there is no clear scriptural support.We all interpet,and speculate and our thoughts and views are subject to the world around us.I don't find it necessary to 'throw the baby out with the bathwater' just because the church has had positions I don't agree with.If you feel you can only belong to a church whose leaders are 100% correct 100% of the time I wish you luck in your search. 

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 14, 2010 - 1:28AM #10
MMCSFOX
Posts: 1,539

and please tell me you are talking abt Dyer building up his own ego and not me...i never said this stuff and passed it off as the Lords plan....


 also...how can it be "anti" if it plainly and simply came from a GA? there is no doctrine that says reason it out!!!! what ever happened to obeying the order "when the prophet has spoken the thinking has been done??"


*


Whatever happened to prayerfully studying things out for yourself?Frown


*


“Seek the good in everyone, and reveal it, bring it forth.”


- Rabbi Nachman of Breslov (1772-1811)


*


Some days are harder than others but we still need to try, Violet I will still remember you in my prayers.


 

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