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Switch to Forum Live View Ratzinger WAS Part of the Problem
4 years ago  ::  Jul 02, 2010 - 2:55PM #1
Brownowl33
Posts: 443

www.nytimes.com/2010/07/02/world/europe/...


 


Coming on the heels of Ratzinger throwing a hissy fit over the Belgian government stepping in to investigate the Catholic Church's role in covering up for the actions of pedophile priests and bishops, this article demonstrates that the office he headed for decades did little or nothing in many cases to stop children from being abused.  They moved slowly or not at all, even after concerned bishops literally pleaded with them to do something.  To this day, they still apparently haven't set a unified policy on how to deal with these people.  So far, they've blamed gays/Jews/Satan/etc for their problems.....anything but accept responsibility for their own crimes.


I would personally like to see Ratzinger deposed, and extradited to be put on trial for his actions.  Whoever heads the Catholic church after this man is going to have a big, big job to handle to salvage what little is left of its credibility.  I'm quite certain we haven't heard anywhere near the end of this issue, and I'm betting we've only seen the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the sexual abuse, and the cover-ups of said abuse by those in power, committed by the various "holy" men.

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4 years ago  ::  Jul 02, 2010 - 3:02PM #2
Ebon
Posts: 9,802

Has he actually committed a crime though? Morally repugnant though his alleged actions may have been, I'm unclear on whether Vatican City is a signatory to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child and if they're not, he probably can't be prosecuted under international law. Whether ordering or facilitating the cover-up of such crimes is illegal depends on what jurisdiction th crimes were committed in. Some countries and states have such laws, some don't.

He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God. ~ Proverbs 14:31

Fiat justitia, ruat caelum

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4 years ago  ::  Jul 02, 2010 - 4:01PM #3
jane2
Posts: 14,287
[/quote]


I'm fringey RCC and many of us know more about this than you suspect. Right now I am re-reading Cozzens' SACRED SILENCE (2002). The recent--this week--appointments by Benedict to the governing councils of the RCC were meant to see that his vision of Church prevails. Thousands of us fringies in Europe, Australia, the US no longer contribute one cent to the RCC--called voting with your wallet. We don't show up, either.


I don't like Benedict's ecclesiogy nor did I like that of his predecessor : preservationism. What they are preserving is in their own minds.


Benedict is a frail old man, off to Castel Gondolfo for a bit. Many of us believe that the RCC needs to revise its clericalism, which often protects the clergy and dismisses just about all others.



discuss catholicism
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 02, 2010 - 4:12PM #4
Christianlib
Posts: 21,848

Jul 2, 2010 -- 3:02PM, Ebon wrote:


Has he actually committed a crime though? Morally repugnant though his alleged actions may have been, I'm unclear on whether Vatican City is a signatory to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child and if they're not, he probably can't be prosecuted under international law. Whether ordering or facilitating the cover-up of such crimes is illegal depends on what jurisdiction th crimes were committed in. Some countries and states have such laws, some don't.





 


Who knows for sure if he committed a crime.  That's what open and honest investigations are for.  BUT, Obstruction of Justice; Accomplice after the fact (as in covering up a crime): Aiding, Abetting or hiding a fleeing felon; Perjury: and Conspiracy to commit any of those ARE crimes.


Also, how badly would the defecation hit the ventilators if RICO charges were brought against the church or against dioceses?

Democrats think the glass is half full.
Republicans think the glass is theirs.
Libertarians want to break the glass, because they think a conspiracy created it.
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 02, 2010 - 5:26PM #5
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,303

Jul 2, 2010 -- 2:55PM, Brownowl33 wrote:


Coming on the heels of Ratzinger throwing a hissy fit over the Belgian government stepping in to investigate the Catholic Church's role in covering up for the actions of pedophile priests and bishops, this article demonstrates that the office he headed for decades did little or nothing in many cases to stop children from being abused. 



He was Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.


What does that have to do with criminal investigations against pedophily? Even if formally responsible since 1922 according to some document, it doesn't make much sense to begin with. It would surprise me if many had known that before reading this article - including Ratzinger.


As the article says: he never asserted that authority... do his detractors now say: deliberately, knowing that he could have asserted it, yet deciding freely against the victims?

tl;dr
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 02, 2010 - 5:59PM #6
TPaine
Posts: 9,034

Jul 2, 2010 -- 3:02PM, Ebon wrote:


Has he actually committed a crime though? Morally repugnant though his alleged actions may have been, I'm unclear on whether Vatican City is a signatory to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child and if they're not, he probably can't be prosecuted under international law. Whether ordering or facilitating the cover-up of such crimes is illegal depends on what jurisdiction th crimes were committed in. Some countries and states have such laws, some don't.



All member states of the UN except for Somalia and the United States have ratified the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. The Vatican is not a member of the UN, but is a permenant observer and evidently has not ratified it. Until organized opposition from special interest groups can be overcome, it's questionable if the US will ever ratify it.


Conservative religious organizations including the Christian Coalition, Concerned Women for America, Eagle Forum, Family Research Council, Focus on the Family, the John Birch Society, the National Center for Home Education, and the Rutherford Institute have spearheaded the efforts in opposition to the Convention.



www.amnestyusa.org/children/crn_faq.html

"When it shall be said in any country in the world, my poor are happy; neither ignorance nor distress is to be found among them; my jails are empty of prisoners, my streets of beggars; the aged are not in want, the taxes are not oppressive; the rational world is my friend, because I am a friend of its happiness: When these things can be said, then may the country boast its constitution and its government." -- Thomas Paine: The Rights Of Man (1791)
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 02, 2010 - 10:06PM #7
jane2
Posts: 14,287

Jul 2, 2010 -- 5:26PM, CharikIeia wrote:


Jul 2, 2010 -- 2:55PM, Brownowl33 wrote:


Coming on the heels of Ratzinger throwing a hissy fit over the Belgian government stepping in to investigate the Catholic Church's role in covering up for the actions of pedophile priests and bishops, this article demonstrates that the office he headed for decades did little or nothing in many cases to stop children from being abused. 



He was Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.


What does that have to do with criminal investigations against pedophily? Even if formally responsible since 1922 according to some document, it doesn't make much sense to begin with. It would surprise me if many had known that before reading this article - including Ratzinger.


As the article says: he never asserted that authority... do his detractors now say: deliberately, knowing that he could have asserted it, yet deciding freely against the victims?






CK


I think few in the US who haven't studied European or Church history have much idea what is going on. The 1922 document is new to me but not the prevailing thinking of protectionism by the last three popes. Ratzinger/Benedict is caught between and betwixt. Very often I think he wants the passe monarchical model to hold : not the more democratic monarchical practice of today.


The RCC has had a vendetta against "modernism" for over a hundred years.


Ratzinger/Benedict has never lived in the real world since his childhood in war-torn Bavaria. He's an intellectual/ theologian and not an administrator. I disagree mightily with his eccelsiology and that is where I find his culpability, not in today's legal arena.


 

discuss catholicism
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 03, 2010 - 12:55AM #8
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,303

Jul 2, 2010 -- 10:06PM, jane2 wrote:


The RCC has had a vendetta against "modernism" for over a hundred years.


Ratzinger/Benedict has never lived in the real world since his childhood in war-torn Bavaria. He's an intellectual/ theologian and not an administrator. I disagree mightily with his ecclesiology and that is where I find his culpability, not in today's legal arena.



I think you're completely right, Jane.


Not being Catholic myself (but Lutheran), I just find the RCC ecclesiology ludicrous to begin with.


But he's a brilliant, sharp theologian! I'd been missing that in the public arena for very long. Wojtyła was merely an anti-communist politician... and there are just too many clericals around in all Christian churches who think Church and religion are all about doing social work. I see him as a breath of fresh air - proof positive that the European intellectual levels of earlier ages can be attained in this time as well.


But yes, maybe what the RCC needs is just a gifted administrator, not an intellectual.

tl;dr
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 03, 2010 - 3:27PM #9
karbie
Posts: 3,300

There's another thing to consider about Vatican City being a separate country that just happens to be surrounded by the city of Rome....does it allow extradition with any other country? I felt that when Bishop Law was summoned to Rome/Vatican City to be a scholar it was a way to keep him from standing in a court in the US and being answerable legally and morally for the horrors of pedophilia he knew had been going on for a long time. If he became cloistered, he was safe from prosecution and the RCC was safe from him spilling the beans. It seems like the ages old concept of the church being a sanctuary where people could hide to escape the law is now being used to hide priests who know more about foisting those renegades on unsuspecting congregations.


 The Church cast itself as the shepherds who protected the flocks, when there were way too many wolves in priest's clothing picking children out of the herds. There's no way the Pope could be unaware of this sort of behavior. The need seems to be to return to the good old days when people kept their mouths shut and gave more than they could afford to the church. Admittedly many other churches want to get rid of modernization and go back to the good old days themselves before there were things like female clergy or female anything that wasn't done quietly behind the scenes and no one questioned a priest.


 Voting with your wallet is a good thing to do.the RCC has piled up considerable art treasures and extensive libraries so they have plenty  of things to auction off that can allow  the victims to get the treatment they deserve  to recover from their traumas. The gentlemen at the top of the pyramid may be vilified but they won't serve any jail time.Too bad the same thing can't be said for the victims.

"You are letting your opinion be colored by facts again."
'When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you."
these are both from my father.
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 03, 2010 - 4:15PM #10
Christianlib
Posts: 21,848

I have wondered about the extradition question myself.  First of all, don't know if an extradition treaty is in place, but even if one is, extradition is usually decided and negotiated on a case by case basis.

Democrats think the glass is half full.
Republicans think the glass is theirs.
Libertarians want to break the glass, because they think a conspiracy created it.
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