Jun 24, 2010 -- 10:19AM, Dutch777 wrote:

Kimball:

"I wonder if I am on thin ice doing it".

Jonathan Edwards suggests that we're all on thin ice.

Very thin ice.

Damn, I love being a Congregationalist, at times: 

"The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times more abominable in his eyes, than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours."

Kimbal-

Regarding prevenient grace and baptism, as I previously posted, baptism does not convey justifying grace.  A person does not receive the gift of salvation through baptism.  If Hitler was baptized as an infant, then God's grace was imparted to him.  What Hitler chose to do with God's grace was his choice.

Jun 24, 2010 -- 3:24PM, Bevo wrote:

Kimbal-

 

Regarding prevenient grace and baptism, as I previously posted, baptism does not convey justifying grace.  A person does not receive the gift of salvation through baptism.  If Hitler was baptized as an infant, then God's grace was imparted to him.  What Hitler chose to do with God's grace was his choice.

 B
Bevo,

   I understand your position but I am still trying to understand just what it means when you say that "God's grace was imparted..."   After all, many people are never baptized as infants and end up becoming very concecrated Christians---often more spiritual and moral than some who were baptized as infants.  It just seems to me that saying that baptism imparts God's grace is a meaningless abstraction unless we view it totally symbolically.

Dutch,

  Regarding your last, pessimistic posting...........We need to keep you out of the children's Sunday school teaching role.  That sort thinking might bring an even sharper decline in church membership than we have seen in the last 35 years in TEC.

Jun 26, 2010 -- 5:22PM, Bevo wrote:

 I understand your position but I am still trying to understand just what it means when you say that "God's grace was imparted..."   After all, many people are never baptized as infants and end up becoming very concecrated Christians---often more spiritual and moral than some who were baptized as infants.  It just seems to me that saying that baptism imparts God's grace is a meaningless abstraction unless we view it totally symbolically.

 

 

 

In Methodism, along with all Armenian faith traditions (which includes Anglicanism) prevenient grace is universal grace, given to all persons, whether they are baptized or not, and whether they are believers or not.  In baptism, we are not only recognizing this, but also believe that through the waters of baptism, God imparts a certain additional measure of grace to the recipient (again, not justifying grace).  Prevenient grace explains why persons who were never baptized may become very consecrated Christians, although Scripture certainly suggests that they should be baptized.

 

 

Bevo,  I can see the point about "a certain additonal measure of grace" to those who are baptized; at least, I see it in principle but practically speaking it would be difficult to quantify or to qualify.  Likewise prevenient grace is an encouraging concept and has to be seen as something we cannot fully grasp since I am not sure I could actually point to personal examples or scriptures which would fully explain it.  I know Paul and Jeremiah were set apart from their mother's wombs in some sense, but to extrapolate that to all believers is not as easy.   

 Don't get me wrong please.  I am not arguing with you---just thinking out loud about some of the implications of prevenient grace and baptism.

 

God's grace is imparted through the waters of baptism in similar fashion to the way God's grace is imparted when we come to the Table.  This is what sacramental churches teach, practice and believe.  Ordination churches teach, practice and believe baptism and the Breaking of the Bread are purely symbolic. 

 

 

Yes, I do understand the difference between the less sacramental churches and those which are sacramental.  And to be honest with you, I have an easier time seeing how the Lord's Supper imparts grace since faith is involved whereas in infant baptism there is no faith exercised on the part of the recipient. 

It all comes down to what extent faith is required and as you said some theologians believe that personal cognitive recognition is not needed for all sacraments.