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Switch to Forum Live View Lazarus and the rich man
4 years ago  ::  Mar 20, 2010 - 2:27PM #1
Bob10
Posts: 374

Probably the best known alleged "resident" in heaven is the famous beggar Lazarus!


Countless millions have heard the story of "Lazarus and the rich man," much embellished, and with impassioned attacks against the unfeeling, insufferable hauteur of the rich and their disdainful contempt for the plight of the poor.


 The famous parable of Luke 16 seems to say, to many millions, that Lazarus died and went to heaven, but that the rich man died and went to hell! But is this what it really says? Jesus said, "No man has ascended up to heaven" (John 3:13). Did Jesus make a mistake?


garnertedarmstrong.org/pubs/LazarusRichM...

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4 years ago  ::  Mar 20, 2010 - 6:33PM #2
sincerly
Posts: 4,049

Mar 20, 2010 -- 2:27PM, Bob10 wrote:


Probably the best known alleged "resident" in heaven is the famous beggar Lazarus!


Countless millions have heard the story of "Lazarus and the rich man," much embellished, and with impassioned attacks against the unfeeling, insufferable hauteur of the rich and their disdainful contempt for the plight of the poor.


 The famous parable of Luke 16 seems to say, to many millions, that Lazarus died and went to heaven, but that the rich man died and went to hell! But is this what it really says? Jesus said, "No man has ascended up to heaven" (John 3:13). Did Jesus make a mistake? 




Bob,  Jesus used parables to teach truths and principles. This Parable was among many others and the subject was the lost and God's efforts in their salvation as well as the why others would not be saved. Jesus made no mistake.  It was the Scribes and Pharisees who as leaders had shut up the kingdom from the "publican and sinners". They were rich in the knowledge of GOD and HIS Mercies, but keep it to themselves.  The principle is seen in Matt.21:31

Peace,   Sincerly.      As long as sin is practiced, one will search for a means to validate the continuing therein. ANON

The greatest want of the world is the want of men--men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.---- ANON  (Ellen G. White. 1882)
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4 years ago  ::  Mar 31, 2010 - 1:51PM #3
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

Lazarus wasn't a parable: Parables don't ever use proper names. Jesus was giving a message using people known to his audience.


Lazarus didn't go to Heaven. He went to Paradise aka Abraham's Bosom the secton of the Grave that does not involve punishment-notice Sheol was visible from Paradise.

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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4 years ago  ::  Apr 01, 2010 - 1:19AM #4
sincerly
Posts: 4,049

Mar 31, 2010 -- 1:51PM, davelaw40 wrote:


Lazarus wasn't a parable: Parables don't ever use proper names. Jesus was giving a message using people known to his audience.


Lazarus didn't go to Heaven. He went to Paradise aka Abraham's Bosom the secton of the Grave that does not involve punishment-notice Sheol was visible from Paradise.





Dave, that is great assumption, but no facts. Lazarus, The brother of Martha and Mary, wasn't ever identified as a beggar nor full of sores. Since Jesus was a frequent visitor at their home, He would have healed any sores that he had as he did others.    Also, since Lazarus was a beggar, why would Jesus take food from HIS friends mouth? Lazarus's death was an attestation to the power of Christ's promise of the Resurrection to come for all--- whether in the first or second one.


Chapter 17, answers the why of the parable. Don't be guilty of an offense against thy brother.  That second great commandment. And be ready to Forgive those who repent.


As Jesus said, the correct relationship to GOD and one's fellow beings was given by GOD at Sinai and all heard it spoken from God and saw the hand written tablets. The people were reminded of their part of the covenant for forty years.


Dave, as you wrote, the hebrew word "sheol" is translated into English as "hell",  "grave", or "pit". Therefore, which end of the grave is "punishment free"?  And how does "dust" feel such?  How do you reconcile Eccl.9:5, "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." plus many other verses. 


John 5:28, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,".    Paul, in 1Thess.4:15-17, "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. "" AND 


1Cor.15:51-53,  "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.""

Peace,   Sincerly.      As long as sin is practiced, one will search for a means to validate the continuing therein. ANON

The greatest want of the world is the want of men--men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.---- ANON  (Ellen G. White. 1882)
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4 years ago  ::  Apr 02, 2010 - 12:43PM #5
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

its not the same Lazarus


 


the fact remains parables are stories that use generalizations - a proper name is a specific ergo the story of the rich man and Lazarus is Not a parable

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4 years ago  ::  Apr 02, 2010 - 12:48PM #6
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

Apr 1, 2010 -- 1:19AM, sincerly wrote:


Dave, as you wrote, the hebrew word "sheol" is translated into English as "hell",  "grave", or "pit". Therefore, which end of the grave is "punishment free"?  And how does "dust" feel such?  How do you reconcile Eccl.9:5, "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." plus many other verses. 


 




 


Ecclestiastes is the Wisdom of man absent the revelation of God.

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4 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2010 - 3:57PM #7
sincerly
Posts: 4,049

Apr 2, 2010 -- 12:43PM, davelaw40 wrote:


its not the same Lazarus


 the fact remains parables are stories that use generalizations - a proper name is a specific ergo the story of the rich man and Lazarus is Not a parable 




Dave,  You said previously,

Lazarus didn't go to Heaven. He went to Paradise aka Abraham's Bosom the secton of the Grave that does not involve punishment-notice Sheol was visible from Paradise.


now you say,

a proper name is a specific ergo the story of the rich man and Lazarus is Not a parable 


.


Paradise isn't one end of the grave and neither did Abraham have multitudes of bosoms to accompany all that have died..   Neither is there any fire in the other end of that grave.  Also, neither can the inhabitants of one grave "see" into another's grave. Yes, it was a parable.


Dave wrote:

Ecclestiastes is the Wisdom of man absent the revelation of God.



Tell that to GOD. 1Kings 4:29, "And God gave Solomon wisdom and understanding exceeding much, and largeness of heart, even as the sand that [is] on the sea shore.   The Kingsofthe nations round-about came to learn og his wisdom and also, the Queen of Sheba.  Therefore, the "nations" were learning of God's ways/laws---even in the failings of Solomon(as written in Eccleiastes).  Eccl.12:13-14, "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.  For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil."

Peace,   Sincerly.      As long as sin is practiced, one will search for a means to validate the continuing therein. ANON

The greatest want of the world is the want of men--men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.---- ANON  (Ellen G. White. 1882)
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