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8 years ago  ::  Mar 16, 2010 - 5:21PM #61
Fraggle
Posts: 210

you know, during this Lent, I have been reading from the Book of Jeremiah. it's been very good for me, who is so prideful, to see the witness of a prideful man who by only the grace of God is humbled to be a great prophet. i recognize in him my own fraility and frustration and zeal. it helps me realize that all that is good in me comes from God and all my failures are my own. 


i think it would be good fruit to read the Book of Jeremiah and contemplate what the Word has to teach us through this man's prophetic story.

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8 years ago  ::  Mar 16, 2010 - 5:44PM #62
Dovid
Posts: 26

*["very strong words you have for someone you don't know personally, especially for someone who claims to love all Catholics..."]


***I may not know you personally but I can read your words. Out of the abundance of your heart your words flow...and what flows is in opposition to what the Scriptures say.


*[" well, i am Catholic."]


***I am truly sorry to hear that. I am sure you are sincere in your faith...I would not dare say otherwise...but you have been deceived by the god of this world. You think that I am a harsh person when I say that you must be redeemed and that salvation comes only by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ ALONE as the Scriptures say. You think I am unloving when I tell you that you have Cancer and must go to the Great Physician for the CURE (i.e., SIN)...but that is what the Scriptures say. I cannot be delicate or politically correct on an issue as grave as salvation or the SECOND DEATH.


All I ask is that you (a very bright lady) study the Scriptures and ask God to show you in His Word what they reveal. If you truly want the correct answers to your questions He WILL provide them to you by His Holy Spirit 


Dovid

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8 years ago  ::  Mar 16, 2010 - 6:00PM #63
Fraggle
Posts: 210

harsh to me? no, not really. unreasonable in your errors and responses in general, yeah. you have good intentions, there is no doubt about that. i just think you need to exercise more virtue before you can be a fit prophetic witness of God. going into such a task before you are ready will only drive people away. look at how other people have responded to you. others are having trouble seeing you demonstrate virtuous behavior. you've been reminded that this is not a debate forum. i am left here conversing with you. think about that.


yes, i am in need of redemption from Jesus Christ. what man or woman on earth isn't? but please be humbled enough to realize that you don't see the whole picture of me, just as i don't see the whole picture of you. there is no way for a human to know that much. only God knows. instead of presuming whether the other is saved/redeemed or not, let us instead hope and pray to Jesus Christ that that He will prevail over us and win us over for the Father. 

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8 years ago  ::  Jun 24, 2010 - 7:54PM #64
Dovid
Posts: 26

*["...When Catholics talk about 'praying' to Mary or the saints, THEY ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT PRAYERS OF WORSHIP..."]


***You are mistaken. The titles given to Mary by your church are in themselves a revelation of their  sentiment toward her. She is called: Mother of God, Queen of Heaven, Queen of the Apostles, Queen of the Angels, The Door of Paradise, The Gate of Heaven, Our Life, Mother of Grace, Mother of Mercy, and many others which ascribe to her supernatural powers.


All of these titles are false. Let us consider just two of them. When she is called "Queen of the Apostles," is that an apostolic doctrine? Where is it found? Certainly not in Scripture. When did the apostles elect Mary their queen? And the title, "Queen of Heaven," is equally false, or even worse. Heaven has no "queen." The only references in Scripture to prayers to the "queen of heaven" are found in Jeremiah 7:18;44:17-19, where it is severely condemned as a heathen custom practiced by some apostate Jews. This so-called "queen of heaven" was a canaanitish goddess of fertility, Astarte (Judges 2:13).


Nowhere in the Bible is there the slightest suggestion that prayer should be offered to Mary. If God had intended that we should pray to her, surely He would have said so. Worship is accorded to the infant Jesus; but NEVER to His mother. It is written: "They fell down and worshipped HIM" [Matthew 2:11]. And to whom did the pagan magi give their gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh? To Mary? Or to Joseph? No...they presented their gifts to JESUS. Unlike Roman Catholicism...these pagan magi recognized HIM, not Mary or Joseph, ALONE as worthy of WORSHIP!


Lastly; the Roman Catholic Church does, indeed, WORSHIP Mary and applies titles to her that ONLY should be applied to the Lord Jesus Christ---thus elevating her to DEITY. In his book, "The Glories of Mary" (1931 edition; Redemptorist Fathers, Brooklyn) Bishop Alphonse de Liguori says the following:


(A)Mary Is the Gate to Heaven Instead of Christ


RCC: "Mary is called...the gate of heaven because no one can enter that blessed kingdom without, passing through HER (p. 160). The Way of salvation is open to none otherwise than through MARY, and since 'Our salvation is in the hands of Mary...He who is protected by MARY will be saved, he who is not will be lost' (pp.169, 170).


The BIBLE: "I am the DOOR. By me, if any man enter in, he shall be saved" say Jesus Christ [John 10:1, 7, 9]..."Jesus saith to him, I am the way...no man cometh unto the Father but by Me" [John 14:6]..."Neither is there salvation in any other" [Acts 4:12].


(B)Mary Is Given the Power of Christ


RCC: "All power is given to thee in Heaven and on earth," so that "at the command of MARY all obey---even God...and thus...God has placed the whole Church...under the domination of MARY" (pp. 180, 181). Mary "is also the Advocate of the whole human race...for, she can do what she wills with God" (p. 193).


The BIBLE: "All power is given Me in Heaven and in earth," so that "in the Name of JESUS every knee should bow,"..."that in all things He may hold the primacy" (Matthew 28:18;Philippians 2:9-11;Colossians 1:18). "But if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, JESUS CHRIST the Just; and He is the propititiation for our sins" (1 John 2:1,2).


(C)Mary Is Given the Glory that Belongs to Christ Alone


RCC: "The whole Trinity, O MARY, gave thee a name...above every other name, that at Thy name, every knee should BOW, of things in heaven, on earth, and under the earth" (p.280).


The BIBLE: "God also hath highly exalted HIM, and hath given HIM a Name which is above all names, that in the Name of JESUS every knee should BOW, of those that are in Heaven, on earth, and under the earth" (Philippians 2:9, 10).


NOTE: Under step (C)...the tribute accored to MARY (by the Roman Catholic Church) is the EXACT tribute accorded to JESUS CHRIST...making her EQUAL to God by the Catholic Church despite your denials to the contrary! Only God is to be BOWED to...and the Catholic Church commands you to BOW the knee to MARY your GODDESS through whom you can secure your salvation. There is no doubt that you WORSHIP HER!!


Dovid 

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8 years ago  ::  Jul 05, 2010 - 3:28PM #65
Fraggle
Posts: 210

the titles are analogies that reflect what words cannot describe adequately.  they're not to be taken literally, in a secular sense, but relationally to Christ.

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8 years ago  ::  Jul 05, 2010 - 9:46PM #66
Ashe
Posts: 311

As a cradle catholic I've never worshipped Mary, I've never been taught to worship Mary and any Catholic who does worship Mary is no longer Catholic from the moment they start worshipping someone other than God.  The Church doesn't teach it, it's not in the bible, it's not in tradition. 


@the comments on labels used for Mary:   I call my dog my baby, does that mean that she is literally my baby?  No, that is ridiculous it's a term of endearment it means that I care about her and think she's special.  Is it wrong to therefore care about the woman who gave birth to the son of God and think that she is special for being chosen?  I wouldn't say so but the greater concern here isn't the catholic respect and devotion for the 'Mother of God' (and there's another title that doesn't mean exactly what it says it's used because Mary carried and gave birth to God the son). The bigger issue is over why so many non-catholics act like she's deserving of no respect at all or very little when the bible is a lot louder about her importance.


From ESV:   Luke 1:41-45 41 And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, 42 and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43 And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For behold, when the sound of your greeting came to my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45 And blessed is she who believed that there would be [7] a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.”


 

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8 years ago  ::  Jul 06, 2010 - 2:12PM #67
Bezant
Posts: 1,338

What's up Dovid


***You are mistaken. The titles given to Mary by your church are in themselves a revelation of their  sentiment toward her. She is called: Mother of God, Queen of Heaven, Queen of the Apostles, Queen of the Angels, The Door of Paradise, The Gate of Heaven, Our Life, Mother of Grace, Mother of Mercy, and many others which ascribe to her supernatural powers.


At best these titles are abstract and sentimental. Even if they referred to Mary's "supernatural powers," Mary isn't e.g., literally a "ruler" of the Apostles or a "gatekeeper" to Paradise according to Catholic doctrine; she was born in the flesh, like everyone else, and the source of all existence is God, of course.


"All of these titles are false. Let us consider just two of them. When she is called "Queen of the Apostles," is that an apostolic doctrine? Where is it found? Certainly not in Scripture. When did the apostles elect Mary their queen?"


You're right. They didn't. Her title is abstract and accords no literal supernatural powers to her.


"And the title, "Queen of Heaven," is equally false, or even worse. Heaven has no 'queen.' The only references in Scripture to prayers to the "queen of heaven" are found in Jeremiah 7:18;44:17-19, where it is severely condemned as a heathen custom practiced by some apostate Jews. This so-called "queen of heaven" was a canaanitish goddess of fertility, Astarte (Judges 2:13). Nowhere in the Bible is there the slightest suggestion that prayer should be offered to Mary."


Two things --


First problem: as you already understand Catholic doctrine isn't based sola scriptura; you are arguing on a premise your Catholic opponents reject. That gets problematic.


Secondly, there are many "suggestions" absent or not wholly clear in the Bible, such as Trinity, Christmas, and Christ's Nature.


"If God had intended that we should pray to her, surely He would have said so."


No one has to pray to Mary.


"Worship is accorded to the infant Jesus; but NEVER to His mother. It is written: "They fell down and worshipped HIM" [Matthew 2:11]. And to whom did the pagan magi give their gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh? To Mary? Or to Joseph? No...they presented their gifts to JESUS. Unlike Roman Catholicism...these pagan magi recognized HIM, not Mary or Joseph, ALONE as worthy of WORSHIP!"


The Catholic Church agrees with you. Worship is due only to God...there's no argument here, and I see no reason why there should be one.


'Course our Jewish friends say we overstepped monotheistic boundaries by screaming God procreated Himself and killed Himself then resurrected Himself and ascended to Himself anyway...just a thought while we're talking heresy.


"Lastly; the Roman Catholic Church does, indeed, WORSHIP Mary and applies titles to her that ONLY should be applied to the Lord Jesus Christ---thus elevating her to DEITY. In his book, 'The Glories of Mary' (1931 edition; Redemptorist Fathers, Brooklyn) Bishop Alphonse de Liguori says the following:"


(A)Mary Is the Gate to Heaven Instead of Christ


RCC: "Mary is called...the gate of heaven because no one can enter that blessed kingdom without, passing through HER (p. 160). The Way of salvation is open to none otherwise than through MARY, and since 'Our salvation is in the hands of Mary...He who is protected by MARY will be saved, he who is not will be lost' (pp.169, 170).


The BIBLE: "I am the DOOR. By me, if any man enter in, he shall be saved" say Jesus Christ [John 10:1, 7, 9]..."Jesus saith to him, I am the way...no man cometh unto the Father but by Me" [John 14:6]..."Neither is there salvation in any other" [Acts 4:12].


(B)Mary Is Given the Power of Christ


RCC: "All power is given to thee in Heaven and on earth," so that "at the command of MARY all obey---even God...and thus...God has placed the whole Church...under the domination of MARY" (pp. 180, 181). Mary "is also the Advocate of the whole human race...for, she can do what she wills with God" (p. 193).


The BIBLE: "All power is given Me in Heaven and in earth," so that "in the Name of JESUS every knee should bow,"..."that in all things He may hold the primacy" (Matthew 28:18;Philippians 2:9-11;Colossians 1:18). "But if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, JESUS CHRIST the Just; and He is the propititiation for our sins" (1 John 2:1,2).


(C)Mary Is Given the Glory that Belongs to Christ Alone


RCC: "The whole Trinity, O MARY, gave thee a name...above every other name, that at Thy name, every knee should BOW, of things in heaven, on earth, and under the earth" (p.280).


The BIBLE: "God also hath highly exalted HIM, and hath given HIM a Name which is above all names, that in the Name of JESUS every knee should BOW, of those that are in Heaven, on earth, and under the earth" (Philippians 2:9, 10).


NOTE: Under step (C)...the tribute accored to MARY (by the Roman Catholic Church) is the EXACT tribute accorded to JESUS CHRIST...making her EQUAL to God by the Catholic Church despite your denials to the contrary! Only God is to be BOWED to...and the Catholic Church commands you to BOW the knee to MARY your GODDESS through whom you can secure your salvation.


There is no doubt that you WORSHIP HER!!"


According to Catholic doctrine we are forbidden to worship Mary. Period. No offense, but the best you can do to prove Catholics worship Mary as a doctrinal policy is throw up your opinion of what Catholic doctrine "really" says.


It your opinion versus a 2,000-year-old institution we believe was instituted by Christ and continues to be guided by the Holy Spirit, bolstered by countless honourable theologians over the centuries.... You have a right to your opinion, but no practising Catholic buys it; not even some Protestants will buy it.


Secondly, Liguori, despite his honour as a DOC, isn't as an individual representative of Catholic doctrine on Mary. And, after shelling out tonnes of money for grammar school, law school, and seminarial school, I highly doubt a Doctor of the Church made so elementary a mistake as to confuse Christ with Mary.

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8 years ago  ::  Jul 07, 2010 - 10:09AM #68
Bezant
Posts: 1,338

Here's the Nicene Creed--the basic sum of Catholic belief -- not a quotation from an individual Doctor of the Church. As Marian Goddess worship is completely absent from this basic creed, your claim that Catholics in reality worship Mary doesn't hold water.


 


"We believe in One God,


The Father the Almighty,


Maker of Heaven and Earth,


Of all that is seen and unseen,


We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,


The only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,


God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God.


Begotten not made and One in Being with the Father.


Through Him all things were made, for us men and for our salvation.


By the power of the Holy Spirit, He was born of the Virgin Mary and became man.


For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate,


He suffered, died, and was burried.


On the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures,


He ascended into Heaven and is seated at the Right Hand of the Father.


He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom will have no end.


We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son.


With the Father and the Son He is worshipped and glorified.


He has spoken through the Prophets.


We believe in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church,


We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins,


We look for the resurrection of the dead,


And the life of the world to come."

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8 years ago  ::  Jul 07, 2010 - 5:37PM #69
BoulderGuy
Posts: 61

Jun 24, 2010 -- 7:54PM, Dovid wrote:


*["...When Catholics talk about 'praying' to Mary or the saints, THEY ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT PRAYERS OF WORSHIP..."]


***You are mistaken. The titles given to Mary by your church are in themselves a revelation of their  sentiment toward her. She is called: Mother of God, Queen of Heaven, Queen of the Apostles, Queen of the Angels, The Door of Paradise, The Gate of Heaven, Our Life, Mother of Grace, Mother of Mercy, and many others which ascribe to her supernatural powers.


All of these titles are false. Let us consider just two of them. When she is called "Queen of the Apostles," is that an apostolic doctrine? Where is it found? Certainly not in Scripture. When did the apostles elect Mary their queen? And the title, "Queen of Heaven," is equally false, or even worse. Heaven has no "queen." The only references in Scripture to prayers to the "queen of heaven" are found in Jeremiah 7:18;44:17-19, where it is severely condemned as a heathen custom practiced by some apostate Jews. This so-called "queen of heaven" was a canaanitish goddess of fertility, Astarte (Judges 2:13).


Nowhere in the Bible is there the slightest suggestion that prayer should be offered to Mary. If God had intended that we should pray to her, surely He would have said so. Worship is accorded to the infant Jesus; but NEVER to His mother. It is written: "They fell down and worshipped HIM" [Matthew 2:11]. And to whom did the pagan magi give their gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh? To Mary? Or to Joseph? No...they presented their gifts to JESUS. Unlike Roman Catholicism...these pagan magi recognized HIM, not Mary or Joseph, ALONE as worthy of WORSHIP!


Lastly; the Roman Catholic Church does, indeed, WORSHIP Mary and applies titles to her that ONLY should be applied to the Lord Jesus Christ---thus elevating her to DEITY. In his book, "The Glories of Mary" (1931 edition; Redemptorist Fathers, Brooklyn) Bishop Alphonse de Liguori says the following:


(A)Mary Is the Gate to Heaven Instead of Christ


RCC: "Mary is called...the gate of heaven because no one can enter that blessed kingdom without, passing through HER (p. 160). The Way of salvation is open to none otherwise than through MARY, and since 'Our salvation is in the hands of Mary...He who is protected by MARY will be saved, he who is not will be lost' (pp.169, 170).


The BIBLE: "I am the DOOR. By me, if any man enter in, he shall be saved" say Jesus Christ [John 10:1, 7, 9]..."Jesus saith to him, I am the way...no man cometh unto the Father but by Me" [John 14:6]..."Neither is there salvation in any other" [Acts 4:12].


(B)Mary Is Given the Power of Christ


RCC: "All power is given to thee in Heaven and on earth," so that "at the command of MARY all obey---even God...and thus...God has placed the whole Church...under the domination of MARY" (pp. 180, 181). Mary "is also the Advocate of the whole human race...for, she can do what she wills with God" (p. 193).


The BIBLE: "All power is given Me in Heaven and in earth," so that "in the Name of JESUS every knee should bow,"..."that in all things He may hold the primacy" (Matthew 28:18;Philippians 2:9-11;Colossians 1:18). "But if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, JESUS CHRIST the Just; and He is the propititiation for our sins" (1 John 2:1,2).


(C)Mary Is Given the Glory that Belongs to Christ Alone


RCC: "The whole Trinity, O MARY, gave thee a name...above every other name, that at Thy name, every knee should BOW, of things in heaven, on earth, and under the earth" (p.280).


The BIBLE: "God also hath highly exalted HIM, and hath given HIM a Name which is above all names, that in the Name of JESUS every knee should BOW, of those that are in Heaven, on earth, and under the earth" (Philippians 2:9, 10).


NOTE: Under step (C)...the tribute accored to MARY (by the Roman Catholic Church) is the EXACT tribute accorded to JESUS CHRIST...making her EQUAL to God by the Catholic Church despite your denials to the contrary! Only God is to be BOWED to...and the Catholic Church commands you to BOW the knee to MARY your GODDESS through whom you can secure your salvation. There is no doubt that you WORSHIP HER!!


Dovid 





I have to agree with Bezant 100% on this topic.  Rather than bore the other readers with a fairly long piece, I suggest you review the attached whichs shows the Catholic teaching and scriptural supoort for the veneration of Mary, not the worship of Her.


www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm


God Bless

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