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4 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2010 - 10:02PM #11
sincerly
Posts: 4,049

Jun 1, 2010 -- 9:25AM, Queentoyou wrote:


I was raised in a Baptist church, my father being the minister, in North Carolina. Regarding the last question about saving babies, and people from remote areas of the world...I was always taught that God "excuses" babies, children, and those who for various reasons cannot understand the prayer of salvation/ Jesus Christ as one's savior (disabled, etc.). I was taught that Jesus will not return/ the rapture will not occur until all peoples in remote regions of the world have been brought the message of Jesus Christ. I have always had peace knowing this, as it only makes sense that God would not hold babies/children accountable. 




Queen, here's something to think about. Human beings learn about everything they have knowledge of from a "source".  Each individual is in possession of the "freedom to choose".  GOD gave the parents the responsibility to "train up a child".  That can be as GOD directed----a constant instilling of the knowledge AND LOVE FOR/of GOD in all activities.  The parents can abrogate that responsibility to others or to follow their own misguided practices or "peers" or the godless school system.    


God knows the heart and mind of ALL AGES. HE isn't pleased that any perish, but that all come to Repentance. Good parents raise children who make wrong choices(Samson, the prodigal)  and children of Disobedient parents who make Good choices. (Ruth, Jonathan ).


Be assured that in the day of resurrection GOD will make NO MISTAKE as to who will be fit for the New Earth. GOD knows who are HIS.

Peace,   Sincerly.      As long as sin is practiced, one will search for a means to validate the continuing therein. ANON

The greatest want of the world is the want of men--men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.---- ANON  (Ellen G. White. 1882)
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4 years ago  ::  Sep 12, 2010 - 10:21PM #12
humbly.search.for.truth
Posts: 326

Apr 23, 2010 -- 5:51PM, Ana wrote:


1) If Adam and Eve had NOT sinned in the beginning, would they still be living today? Adam lived to be well over 900 years before dying.


Had Adam and Eve not sinned in the beginning they would had eternal life and would still be alive and every thing would had been perfect.  (don't you wish you'd been there and stop them)


2) What does a baptist believe about the future of the literal earth and the people on it? For example: Will the earth be burned up, destroyed, recreated? Eventually become uninhabited?


For everything to be all right again this earth as we know it and all of the people on it have to be destroyed or lifted to a special place to wait for a new world so we all can live in peace.





So you agree that IF Adam and Eve (our original parents) did NOT sin, they would still be with us today and would live forever. 


I am wondering about this concept from a logical standpoint as well as a scriptural one. If we believe that God has both the ability and desire to accomplish anything he purposes to do, then why would he "settle" for second best?  Why would he allow Satan and his followers have their way by causing a rebellion in the Garden and then NOT do anything to remedy the situation and bring a permanant solution towards his original purpose, restoring things the way they were?  It is like God would be saying in effect, "Oh well, I guess that didn't quite go as planned. Now, I guess I will just have everyone go up to Heaven instead."  It kind of makes it seem that Satan is more powerful since he would have succeeded in thwarting his original purpose for the earth.


He purposes to have humans live on the earth forever:


Isa 45:18 (NIV) - "For this is what the LORD says--he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited--he says: "I am the LORD, and there is no other."


Those who are ruining the earth will be removed:


Rev 11:18 (NIV) - "The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great--and for destroying those who destroy the earth."


Ps 37:9-11 (NASB) 9For evildoers will be cut off,
         But those who wait for the LORD, they will inherit the land.


10Yet a little while and the wicked man will be no more;
         And you will look carefully for his place and he will not be there.


11But the humble will inherit the land
         And will delight themselves in abundant prosperity.


The earth will remain forever:


Ps 104:5 (NASV) - "He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not totter forever and ever."


It doesn't make any sense to me that God would destroy the literal earth. The literal earth doesn't have the ability to sin. It is only the wicked on the earth who have that ability to "ruin the earth" both physically and morally. 

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4 years ago  ::  Sep 18, 2010 - 8:41PM #13
Stephenway
Posts: 225

Hi, humbly.  I am barely exploring so many threads and forums.  I am 57 and been Baptist for my whole life.  I cannot speak for Baptists as a whole.  There are a number of different kinds of Baptists with somewhat different thoughts on different subject matters.  I am Southern Baptist, but I don't believe 100% in every little jot and tittle I hear there.  I have some inclinations to some of the Assembly of God teachings, that some Baptists agree with, but they are not really taught under Baptist doctrine.  However, most doctrines for any denomination may hold basic beliefs, but leave things not covered by those beliefs to the conscience and prayers and Bible studies of its individuals.  Also, many Baptists may have difficulty discussing specific issues because they nodded off during that part of the sermon.


I'm no expert, but I believe this will be confirmed by Baptist scholars.  Paul taught that by sin death entered into the world.  If Adam and Eve (A&E) had not sinned, they would not have died.  The Garden of Eden could be a happy, blessed place to live forever.


After A&E sinned, they were subject to death.  Their pefect bodies (with perfect DNA) became corrupted.  Satan didn't rule the world.  Genesis says that A&E were tempted by the serpent.  The Scriptures refer to Satan as the serpent.  If you see a king snake today, that does not mean that the snake is a satanic demon.  Satan used the serpent to get to Eve.


God is the ultimate ruler of all creation.  He gave dominion (or rulership) of the earth to A&E.  A&E turned over the rulership of the earth to Satan when they submitted to him in the serpent.  A&E willfully submitted.  Submission means they acknowledged Satan as the one to listen to, rather than God Who had told them not to eat from that tree.  Therefore A&E gave up their own (and their descendants) right to have dominion, because they turned it over to Satan.  That is why the New Testament teaches that Satan is the prince of the power of the air, and in another place that he is the ruler of this world.  This was definitely not what God intended.


Since all A&E's descendants are not perfect (are corrupted with A&E's corruption through their DNA) then we all are subject to and often fall to submission to Satan's influence.  We want our own way, more often than God's True Way.  So the whole earth is corrupt, and subject to being destroyed by a Holy God, our Creator.  Scientists say that eventually the earth will be consumed by our own sun, and eventually our own sun will be pulled into a black hole.  I believe God's judgment will come long before that.  We only know the physical aspects of creation.  When God speaks (in Revelation) of a new Heaven and a new Earth, I don't think we can teach dogmatically that it will be the same sort of reality that we now experience.  (But humbly I confess, that is something we cannot know until it is revealed.)


Baptists teach, and I believe, in the doctrine of the age of accountablility.  The age of accountability acknowledges that there is an age at which children do not recognize right from wrong (remember the tree that A&E ate from was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil), and therefore, before they come to that age of accountability, then they are not accountable for their sins as the rest of us.  Paul taught that without the law, we could not be charged with violating the law.  Before the age of accountability, souls are without the law that those who become aware of the law are accountable to.  (I hope I said that right, or at least that you understand what I'm trying to say.)


That would certainly cover stillborn and babies who left this world at a young age.  Then I can't say that the age of accountability wouldn't cover much older people who have slower minds.  So I believe (though I'm not speaking for Baptist doctrine) that many people with less capable minds may never fully reach an age of accountability.  How can you hold someone accountable for something that they have no knowledge or understanding of?


No one can come to the Father except through the Son.  That is why the Bible teaches that the gospel of Jesus is to be taught to the whole world.  Still, I cannot speak for someone who lives their entire life in a jungle and has never so much as heard of a Bible.  I would not dare to say what his age of accountability might be.  But experience has shown that even tribes that can't trace their contact with any other civilization has sought some form of worship, which would indicate that they believe in more powerful beings.  But God said through Jeremiah (29:13), "You will search for Me, and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart." (I'm not sure if this quotes any particular translation.)


God is Love, and God's law is Love.  I believe (not Baptist doctrine) that whatever a person believes about whatever religion, if he comes to that age where he recognizes right and wrong, and searches with all his heart for his Creator, that God's Love will be revealed to him.  People can recognize that the best way for this world to survive is through Love.


To say that no one can come to God except through Jesus is absolutely true.  But I don't know if perhaps a person who comes to know God's Love without having heard of Jesus could either (1) be covered by the righteousness of His sacrifice without necessarily having a personal knowledge of it; or (2) if at the moment of his death, as his soul is leaving his earthly body, he comes face to face with his Savior before he goes on to eternal rewards.  I reiterate, many of these thoughts are not Baptist doctrine.  No denomination will have the full realization of God's Truths until they are revealed at the proper time.  Remember, though, there was no First Baptist Church around the corner when Abraham believed God, and God counted it to him for righteousness.

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 11, 2010 - 9:35PM #14
Roodog
Posts: 10,168

Jan 11, 2010 -- 5:03PM, humbly.search.for.truth wrote:


Hello:


I don't really share the beliefs of the baptist faith, but I really would like to know "straight from the horse's mouth" (so to speak) what a baptist (especially southern baptist) believes about a topic.  I don't want to really discuss too much here, because I want to respect that this is a board for baptists, not to debate a topic. If this thread is not welcome here, then please let me know and I will delete it.  


1) If Adam and Eve had NOT sinned in the beginning, would they still be living today?  Adam lived to be well over 900 years before dying.


 


2) What does a baptist believe about the future of the literal earth and the people on it?  


For example: Will the earth be burned up, destroyed, recreated?  Eventually become uninhabited?  


 


3) What will happen to those who have lived in history who have never had the opportunity to hear about God? For example: aborted babies, those who lived in isolated areas, prematurely died, etc.





St Paul writes that with Adam came sin and through sin came death. It is entirely that our first parents would have lived to the present if sin was indeed absent. But the question is moot since sin and death are both present.


The earth as we know it will be burnt up, but not destroyed totally. It will become a new earth and new heaven.


 The word used in the NT passage is 'kainos' which means renewed rather than brand new. It is the root word for 'Cenezoic' which means the life is new in sequence in a long inhabited world.

For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.

St. Thomas Aquinas

If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9
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3 years ago  ::  Nov 17, 2010 - 2:27PM #15
rebekahe7
Posts: 8

I am appalled that any professing Christian would believe that babies would not go to Heaven!


Humbly.Search.,


You need to read Safe in the Arms of God by John MacArthur, and Help! My Baby had Died by Reggie Weems (the latter is my pastor.) Both are short, easy reads.


The doctrine of predestination, or election, handles this debate. Even if one does not believe in the doctrine of election for "age-accountable" persons who they think have a choice in salvation, then the only purpose election could possibly be mentioned for in the Bible is for those without a choice (babies, fetuses, children under an accountable age.)  I actually believe in the doctrine in entirety, but that is a choice of believers & another debate.


OT:
Deuteronomy 1:39 "...And the little ones that you said would be taken captive, your children  who do not yet know good from bad—they will enter the land. I will give  it to them and they will take possession of it."


2 Samuel 12:23 "...But now he has died. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."


Jeremiah 1:5 "...Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you." God knows which babies will die, and he has divine providence for them through grace.


NT:
Mark 10:14
"...Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these."


Luke 18:16-17 "But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”


Revelation 7:9 "...After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no  one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing  before the throne and before the Lamb..." (The election of babies explains how multitudes of people from all tribes and nations will be in heaven, because otherwise, how will entire places that reject Christianity be represented?)


There are more examples, but I'm not sure why anyone would need any more to prove this point. Babies are elected to go to Heaven through grace. They would never be old enough to have faith through grace in order to be saved, so they are already predestined under grace. There is no exception to grace.

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3 years ago  ::  Nov 18, 2010 - 8:24PM #16
Roodog
Posts: 10,168

Nov 17, 2010 -- 2:27PM, rebekahe7 wrote:


I am appalled that any professing Christian would believe that babies would not go to Heaven!


Humbly.Search.,


You need to read Safe in the Arms of God by John MacArthur, and Help! My Baby had Died by Reggie Weems (the latter is my pastor.) Both are short, easy reads.


The doctrine of predestination, or election, handles this debate. Even if one does not believe in the doctrine of election for "age-accountable" persons who they think have a choice in salvation, then the only purpose election could possibly be mentioned for in the Bible is for those without a choice (babies, fetuses, children under an accountable age.)  I actually believe in the doctrine in entirety, but that is a choice of believers & another debate.


OT:
Deuteronomy 1:39 "...And the little ones that you said would be taken captive, your children who do not yet know good from bad—they will enter the land. I will give it to them and they will take possession of it."


2 Samuel 12:23 "...But now he has died. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."


Jeremiah 1:5 "...Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you." God knows which babies will die, and he has divine providence for them through grace.


NT:
Mark 10:14
"...Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these."


Luke 18:16-17 "But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”


Revelation 7:9 "...After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb..." (The election of babies explains how multitudes of people from all tribes and nations will be in heaven, because otherwise, how will entire places that reject Christianity be represented?)


There are more examples, but I'm not sure why anyone would need any more to prove this point. Babies are elected to go to Heaven through grace. They would never be old enough to have faith through grace in order to be saved, so they are already predestined under grace. There is no exception to grace.





If anybody goes to Heaven it is only by the Grace of God.


This is true of infants who die, because like all the rest of us, they are tainted by Adam's sin or it's known as Original Sin or Total Depravity. If this was not so then death would not have claim over them because through sin comes death. No body is a clean slate when they are born, only Jesus was since Adam's fall.

For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.

St. Thomas Aquinas

If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9
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3 years ago  ::  Nov 18, 2010 - 9:02PM #17
Stephenway
Posts: 225

As to the disposition of children dying before the age of accountability, this may give some insight, though truthfully the passage doesn’t give the age of the child.  The child was the son of Jereboam, the King of Israel.  The King had been judged and found guilty by God of his sins.  So it would follow that the child had not been trained up in the way of the Lord, as his father had been the one to lead Israel astray from the proper worship of God after the rebellion against Rehoboam, son of Solomon.  When the child, Abijah by name, became sick, Jereboam had his wife disguise herself and go to the prophet Ahijah to inquire of the outcome of the child’s sickness.  The Lord revealed not only the ruse to the prophet, but also other predictions, part of which are copied following.


“1Ki 14:12  Arise thou therefore, get thee to thine own house: and when thy feet enter into the city, the child shall die.


1Ki 14:13  And all Israel shall mourn for him, and bury him: for he only of Jeroboam shall come to the grave, because in him there is found some good thing toward the LORD God of Israel in the house of Jeroboam.”


There is much in the Bible that indicates that the Lord knows the spirit of children even before they are born.  So in the final analysis, only the Lord can judge the final disposition of the infants.  However, I am inclined to agree with the concept of the age of accountability, and prefer the teaching that one who has not reached an age of understanding will not be held accountable for faults, though this is certainly not a matter to be dogmatic about, since as far as I can see the Bible does not fully attest to one interpretation or the other.  But God’s wisdom is to be trusted in this matter.

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3 years ago  ::  Nov 19, 2010 - 11:46AM #18
rebekahe7
Posts: 8

Roodog,


I am in complete agreement.  We are all born into sin and must be saved by grace, so yes babies are indeed born into sin.  Our God's divine plan of salvation covered questions like "Where do the babies go?" because his blood covered their natural sin due to their incapability of accepting Christ.  I also believe in total depravity. We adults are still sinners even after our belief.  All of us have to claim grace because we are incapable of perfection until we get to heaven.


More for those that believe there is not providence made for children:


Will our God not do what is right? Genesis 18:25


Our God is not willing for little ones to perish (I take this as perish into hell.) Matthew 18:14


Even if we did not have what I believe is bibilcal evidence, I do not believe our God would send a child or baby to be punished with sinners. Even if they were born into sin, he is a merciful and loving God.


 

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