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5 years ago  ::  Jan 06, 2010 - 12:32PM #1
Shaner
Posts: 1,596

 


www.bustedhalo.com/features/catholics-an...


 


Its a good article and sadly contains quite a bit of truth.  We've witnessed it here on Beliefnet.


 


Any thoughts?


 


Peace,


Sandy


 

"Lord, to whom shall we go?  You have the Words of Eternal Life"
"Philippians 4:13. "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 06, 2010 - 1:34PM #2
Pensive
Posts: 139

Yes, I agree Shaner.  There is (most sadly) a lot of truth in that article.  I found myself falling into that mindet here on Beliefnet in the past.  I now try to avoid getting into a debate, as they do tend to get ugly.  The abortion issue is a very touchy issue.  I am pro-life, but I do not neccessarily support changing the laws in our country on abortion.  I feel this may shift the problem out of the limelight, but abortions will still continue just as they did before it was legal.  A better solution is needed.  But I degress.  Obama's vist to Notre Dame was the climax of the division among Catholics.  The anger and venom on both sides were absolutely embarressing to ALL Catholics, as it showed the world that although we claim to be the one true Church, we can't even treat each other with dignity and respect. 

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5 years ago  ::  Jan 06, 2010 - 6:14PM #3
Thomas A Quinas
Posts: 1,670

I do believe that debate can be constructive if done in a respectable manner (though hopefully not on this thread, lest we draw Sandy's wagInnocent).  Communicating over the internet, it's easy to ascribe bad faith since we're not able to deduce mannerism, the tone of one's voice, etc.  We can read between the lines to some extent, but so much is left to guess from our limited perspective.  Also, people by and large have a natural tendency to think poorly of those with whom they disagree on "culture war" issues.  I've seen Fr. Martin and Raymond Arroyo talk many a time.  Both seem mild-mannered and amicable for the most part.  And quite honestly, perhaps both got a little carried away with hyperbole (Arroyo w/ the Antipus remark as well as Fr. Martin with the abortion "only issue" gospel remark.  My views tend to be more inline with Arroyo's, and I do believe Catholic institutions should be more inline with Catholic doctrine, though I hope and pray I'd respond properly to God's grace when discussing these issues with those whom I'd disagree.

If we would completely rejoice the heart of God, let us strive in all things to conform ourselves to his divine will. Let us not only strive to conform ourselves, but also to unite ourselves to whatever dispositions God makes of us. -- Uniformity with God’s Will by Saint  Alphonsus Liguori
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 06, 2010 - 11:27PM #4
jane2
Posts: 14,295

Interesting conversation.


James Martin, SJ is one of my favorite writers. I've subscribed to AMERICA for over 50 years, many years with gift subscriptions from my father. There was one rather glaring error in the article. James Martin was an executive in the business world before he began studying to become a Jesuit. He's a graduate of Wharton. His story of how he left that high-powered world is fascinating. I own several of his books.


For me the whole fracas about the President and Notre Dame was a temper tantrum by the right wing. President Obama was a junior protege of Cardinal Bernadin in Chicago in his work there for the underprivileged. I agree with Father Martin's comments about the abortion issue overriding too much. And President Obama wants to bring the number of abortions down--hardly a bad goal.


I think our Catholic bishops have overplayed their hand with all the abortion chat about the health care bill. The Hyde Amendment exists. Too many bishops overlook that. Decent health care for all has always been the Catholic position.


Civility in discussion is important, but we must realise that there is a dynamic split in how American Catholics think. I'm one of the few liberal Catholics who bothers to post here any longer and I am certainly not always well-received. I was educated in a liberal CSJ college in the Northeast in the late fifties. The winds of Vatican II were blowing even then: it didn't happen in a vacuum. Some fail to realise that Pius XII set much of that in motion. John XXIII as Angelo Roncalli served under Pius XII as a papal diplomat during and after WWII. (And I'm sick of the nonsense afoot about Pius XII.)


The article has some merit, but I find it flawed also.


Here's to civility, always.


 

discuss catholicism
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 07, 2010 - 9:39AM #5
Shaner
Posts: 1,596

 


It isn't just occuring in American Catholicism, its widespread.  Nor is it limited only to debate.  Although that does tend to bring out the worst in some people and I have no stomach for it.


From Bishops right down to the laity, there's a division with some, an "us" vs. "them" mentality that cause's this division and lead's to some very uncharitable words exchanged. 


Yes, we're only human and we're all going to fall sometimes, but hopefully when we get 'back up' we'll be a more kinder, gentler person to all, remembering the Words and teaching's of Our Lord.  And I certainly include myself here. 


Jane, you're most welcome to post here anytime, the main reason more liberals don't post here is because this Forum is a no-debate zone and I've noticed that liberals tend to debate more than moderates, etc.  So naturally they feel more at home at the Catholicism Debate Forum, :-)


Peace,


Sandy


 


 

"Lord, to whom shall we go?  You have the Words of Eternal Life"
"Philippians 4:13. "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 07, 2010 - 12:01PM #6
cove52
Posts: 999

Interesting article and I enjoyed reading the responses. 


One of my biggest concerns regarding online Catholic discussions is the self appointed cyber apologist.  They often go way over the line and throw grace, charity and civility out the window.  The bible nor the catechism are weapons.  No doubt, many of those who take up this cause are well intended but their zealost dedication to and what they think is "righteous intolerance" often lacks charity and leaves little to be desired  


One of the problems with on-line debating/discussions is the inability to see body language or know exactly what is prompting the individual.  We are all shaped by our personal experiences and often our postings are a reaction to something else that is seeded in our collective memory and overall Church experiences.   We tend to make judgement calls on the face value of a statement or posting. And, unfortunately, our judgement call may not be correct. There is so much more behind what people are saying/posting.  The one thing I hope I have learned from these few years I have contributed to internet discussion boards and that is to not take some of these discussions so seriously.  I know some of these discussions have broadened my faith and understanding.  Definitely opened my eyes to Church politics (ugh, ignorance is bliss).  

"I yam what I yam and I yam what I yam that I yam / And I got a lotta muscle and I only gots one eye / And I'll never hurt nobodys and I'll never tell a lie / Top to me bottom and me bottom to me top / That's the way it is 'til the day that I drop, what am I? / I yam what I yam."
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 15, 2010 - 11:55AM #7
gilg
Posts: 5,200

Jan 6, 2010 -- 12:32PM, Shaner wrote:


 


www.bustedhalo.com/features/catholics-an...


 


Its a good article and sadly contains quite a bit of truth.  We've witnessed it here on Beliefnet.


 


Any thoughts?


 


Peace,


Sandy


 




There is some truth there and sometimes I am guilty.


I don't know if it is because of the Internet or because the country itself gets divided by the cultural wars but this drive for "Catholic purity" is something that was not around when I grew up..... One could be Catholic and vote for Democrats, now it seems some Catholics insist that to be Catholic one must vote Republican..... The reaction to Pres Obama speaking at Notre Dame by those insisisting on "catholic purity" however they define this is an example of this trend to define Catholic purity in terms of political party.... Perhaps this yearning for "purity" and conformity is temporary and we will return to a time where uniformity is not so critical. 


 


 

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5 years ago  ::  Jan 17, 2010 - 11:00AM #8
newsjunkie
Posts: 5,744

This paragraph from the article Sandy cited jumped out at me:



More reason for seekers to keep their distance


Spiritual seekers who visit places like Busted Halo — many of whom were raised Catholic… are wondering how institutional faith communities are even relevant to their lives and the example we often set doesn’t do anything to convince them otherwise.

Truth be told, for the enormous number of spiritual seekers who visit places like Busted Halo — many of whom were raised Catholic — the debates raging among Catholics in the blogosphere are equivalent to discussing how many angels can fit on the head of a pin. These seekers are wondering how institutional faith communities are even relevant to their lives and the example we often set doesn’t do anything to convince them otherwise. We should keep in mind that Christ made disciples by forgiving, healing and loving others, not by debating them.



I've come full circle in my seeking -- back at the point where I admit institutional religion isn't for me. I can't volunteer to be part of an institution that does things I believe are wrong. I admitted when I came back to the church that I'm a hypocrite; well I'm tired of being a hypocrite. I have encountered many very good people in the church, and I wish my leaving wouldn't mean losing many of those connections, but I am realistic. I hope I've learned something from them, and I look to the future and the relationships and seeking to come.

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5 years ago  ::  Jan 17, 2010 - 11:06AM #9
newsjunkie
Posts: 5,744

Jan 6, 2010 -- 6:14PM, Thomas A Quinas wrote:


I do believe that debate can be constructive if done in a respectable manner (though hopefully not on this thread, lest we draw Sandy's wagInnocent).  Communicating over the internet, it's easy to ascribe bad faith since we're not able to deduce mannerism, the tone of one's voice, etc.  We can read between the lines to some extent, but so much is left to guess from our limited perspective.  Also, people by and large have a natural tendency to think poorly of those with whom they disagree on "culture war" issues.  I've seen Fr. Martin and Raymond Arroyo talk many a time.  Both seem mild-mannered and amicable for the most part.  And quite honestly, perhaps both got a little carried away with hyperbole (Arroyo w/ the Antipus remark as well as Fr. Martin with the abortion "only issue" gospel remark.  My views tend to be more inline with Arroyo's, and I do believe Catholic institutions should be more inline with Catholic doctrine, though I hope and pray I'd respond properly to God's grace when discussing these issues with those whom I'd disagree.




Why not just make it a policy to treat people with respect and without insult and mischaracterization and demonization? Sure we all fail in our best efforts sometimes, but the more we keep that policy in mind the better we'll become at applying it. Even if you think another person is totally wrong, I do believe one will have more success at convincing others to agrree if one gets rid of anger and the temptation to disrespect and insult before responding. IOW, ad homs detract from an argument rather than support it.

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5 years ago  ::  Jan 19, 2010 - 2:03PM #10
gilg
Posts: 5,200

Jan 17, 2010 -- 11:06AM, newsjunkie wrote:


 


Why not just make it a policy to treat people with respect and without insult and mischaracterization and demonization?




Good question.


I am not sure if it is Pride or Fear that best explains it; perhaps there are better explanations that have more to do with how we were brought up.


 

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