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Switch to Forum Live View Thoughts on the Trinity
8 years ago  ::  Aug 09, 2009 - 9:14AM #1
Keyfer
Posts: 3,545








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This post directly challenges the idea that the Christian God is three separate and distinct People. It is not presented as an attack of any kind, this is me sharing what I believe at this point in time. I sincerely believe that the ideas presented here are scriptural, God honoring and above all, true. I would appreciate your feedback very much, thank you in advance for your honest comments whether pro or con. 




Israelites were taught that God is one person. De 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:” (KJV) Isa 43:11 “I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.” (KJV) Isa 44:6 “The Lord, the King of Israel, even the Lord of armies who has taken up his cause, says, I am the first and the last, and there is no God but me.” (Basic English Version)


In Isiah 9:6 “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.” Notice that this is a prophecy that the son given (Jesus) shall be called, “everlasting Father”. In Colossians 2:9, Paul says that the fullness of the Godhead exists in the Lord Jesus Christ and in John 14:10 and elsewhere, the Lord confirms that the Father is in Him. In the following verse from Matthew, Jesus explains that He reveals the Father to whomsoever He will…Mt 11:27 “…neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.” Philip asked the Lord to reveal the Father to him in John 14:8 & 9, “Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?” Notice that He directed Philip's attention to Himself, not to a different person. If the Father was a different person, I believe that the Lord would have said something like, “When you get to heaven, I will introduce you to my Father.”


Now, if you will, go to our Lord in prayer and ask Him to show you the Father. Can you imagine Him giving you a different answer?


In Mt 28:18, Jesus said that all power in heaven and on earth was given to Him. If God exists in 3 persons, how could only one have all power? If one has all power, the other 2 have no power. What kind of God has no power?


I realize that this is a rather controversial subject and that most of us Christians have been taught that God exists in 3 separate and distinct divine persons. I was confused about this for a long time and have eventually come to the conclusion that God is one person Who exists as a Trinity. In other words, The Holy Trinity is not a trinity of people. This is how I see it... Jehovah had to clothe Himself with a physical body and make it divine (one with Himself) in order to preserve the human race along with our ability to freely choose good and reject evil, He accomplished this in Jesus Christ. During this deification process, Jesus referred to His Father and prayed to Him as though He were a different person because He was.


The body that Jehovah prepared for Himself with Mary had a personality from Mary who prayed to and referred to Jehovah as his father. This personality had evil inclinations and could therefore be tempted with evil. Of course, Jesus never gave in to temptation and therefore, never sinned.


Matthew 4:1 “Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.”


 


God has no evil inclinations and therefore cannot be tempted with evil.


 


James 1:13 “...God cannot be tempted with evil...”




If Jesus had existed from eternity as fully God, then came to earth, He could not have been tempted with evil.


Jesus, before being deified, had to successfully overcome every possible temptation.


Hebrews 4:15 “For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.”


After Jesus lived a perfect, sinless life and was deified ( “I must go to the Father” ), He was made the one and only manifestation of Jehovah, the Everlasting Father, the Alpha and the Omega, God in His fullness. The evil inclinations inherited from us through Mary were completely displaced by Jehovah's Divine inclinations (as is ours, to a degree, during our regeneration). Jesus is the only God of Heaven and Earth. When we look at Jesus, we see Jehovah because He is Jehovah. In Him, God became man and man became God, in other words, Jehovah became Jesus and Jesus became Jehovah. The prophecy in Isiah 9:6 has come to pass (The son given us has become the Everlasting Father). He is now present with us as the Holy Spirit ( I am with you always - Matthew 28:20).


The Holy Trinity is not a trinity of separate and distinct people, but consists of Essence (Father), Body (Son), and Spirit, which emanates, or proceeds from Him. Which we as receptacles are capable of receiving and acting from. We each, being created in His image, exist as a trinity also. We consist of essence in a body and have that which proceeds from us which others detect and refer to as “personality” or “spirit” (Example, she has a good personality, or spirit).




PS - If we Christians promote the idea of God being three separate and distinct persons, are we not forfeiting our status as a monotheistic religion? We may say that we believe in One God in three Divine Persons but couldn't any polytheistic religion claim to be monotheistic using that argument (One God in 100 or more Divine Persons)?


What do you think?


 

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8 years ago  ::  Aug 09, 2009 - 4:25PM #2
Roodog
Posts: 10,168

The nature of God is incomrehensible yet the Bible, most clearly in the New Testament, gives infomation on Who and What God is.


The NT clearly distinguishes between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.  All three are are called God yet they are three distinct persons. They share the nature of God. Trinitarian theology. which I adhere to , distingushes between substance and person. Although it may seem frustratingly repetative, the Athanasian  Creed meticulously explains this doctrine.

For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.

St. Thomas Aquinas

If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9
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8 years ago  ::  Aug 10, 2009 - 12:31AM #3
sincerly
Posts: 4,052

Keyfer, your candle is flickering with the same attitude of doubt which trapped Eve and Cain in disobedience.


 


 


 

Peace,   Sincerly.      As long as sin is practiced, one will search for a means to validate the continuing therein. ANON

The greatest want of the world is the want of men--men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.---- ANON  (Ellen G. White. 1882)
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8 years ago  ::  Aug 10, 2009 - 1:49AM #4
Keyfer
Posts: 3,545

Dear Roodog,


Thanks for your response. You said, "The NT clearly distinguishes between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.  All three are called God yet they are three distinct persons."


I will respond to that with a quote from my original post:


In the following verse from Matthew, Jesus explains that He reveals the Father to whomsoever He will…Mt 11:27 “…neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.” Philip asked the Lord to reveal the Father to him in John 14:8 & 9, “Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?” Notice that He directed Philip's attention to Himself, not to a different person. If the Father was a different person, I believe that the Lord would have said something like, “When you get to heaven, I will introduce you to my Father.”


Would you call that a clear distinction between the Father and the Son?


 


Blessings



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8 years ago  ::  Aug 10, 2009 - 1:56AM #5
Keyfer
Posts: 3,545

Dear Sincerly,


Thanks for your response. Do you feel that I am a doubter because I see things differently than you do?


Kind regards.

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8 years ago  ::  Aug 10, 2009 - 1:40PM #6
sincerly
Posts: 4,052

Aug 10, 2009 -- 1:49AM, Keyfer wrote:


Dear Roodog,


Thanks for your response. You said, "The NT clearly distinguishes between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.  All three are called God yet they are three distinct persons."


I will respond to that with a quote from my original post:


In the following verse from Matthew, Jesus explains that He reveals the Father to whomsoever He will…Mt 11:27 “…neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.” Philip asked the Lord to reveal the Father to him in John 14:8 & 9, “Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?” Notice that He directed Philip's attention to Himself, not to a different person. If the Father was a different person, I believe that the Lord would have said something like, “When you get to heaven, I will introduce you to my Father.”


Would you call that a clear distinction between the Father and the Son?


 


Blessings







Keyfer, I would call it for what it is. Your seeing what you "clearly" want to see.  Now look over a few chapters to (16:15-17),  He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?  And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.  And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."


Possibly you need to see and understand that Jesus has always been a distinct being from the Father and the Holy Spirit as Jesus indicates "clearly" in other scriptures.


From the "Beginning",  "Let us make man in our image".  "Behold, the man is become as one of us."


John 17:5, "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was".


Those are just a few of the scriptural verses which confirm the Trinity.  The "FAITH" which Saves is that which has been firmly established by the "Studying", "Searching", and accepting the entire Holy Spirit given TRUE facts concerning a subject.


Satan deals in partial truths which gives life to false information/"doubts".


You and I can be "One" in the spirit and truth of a project/endeavor/idea/etc., but that doesn't make us one individual.   Matt,28:19


addendum: I just noticed that you have placed the identical post on multiple forums.  Therefore, your premise for posting here is a lie.   Plain, simple and "clear". That is the Same M.O. as satan has used from the "beginning".

Peace,   Sincerly.      As long as sin is practiced, one will search for a means to validate the continuing therein. ANON

The greatest want of the world is the want of men--men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.---- ANON  (Ellen G. White. 1882)
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8 years ago  ::  Aug 10, 2009 - 2:39PM #7
Roodog
Posts: 10,168

Aug 10, 2009 -- 1:49AM, Keyfer wrote:


Dear Roodog,


Thanks for your response. You said, "The NT clearly distinguishes between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.  All three are called God yet they are three distinct persons."


I will respond to that with a quote from my original post:


In the following verse from Matthew, Jesus explains that He reveals the Father to whomsoever He will…Mt 11:27 “…neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.” Philip asked the Lord to reveal the Father to him in John 14:8 & 9, “Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?” Notice that He directed Philip's attention to Himself, not to a different person. If the Father was a different person, I believe that the Lord would have said something like, “When you get to heaven, I will introduce you to my Father.”


Would you call that a clear distinction between the Father and the Son?


 


Blessings







Because Philip, being a Jew, already had a strong faith in the Father. He needed to affirmed in his faith in Christ, Jesus was going to the cross the next day and everyone was going be shaken.

For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.

St. Thomas Aquinas

If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9
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8 years ago  ::  Aug 11, 2009 - 9:22AM #8
Keyfer
Posts: 3,545

Dear Sincerly


If you tried to hurt me, you succeeded, on both your posts.


Kind regards

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8 years ago  ::  Aug 11, 2009 - 12:56PM #9
Roodog
Posts: 10,168

Sincerely can be rough on everyone who isn't Seventh Day Adventist.

For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.

St. Thomas Aquinas

If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9
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8 years ago  ::  Aug 12, 2009 - 3:30PM #10
Bevo
Posts: 561

From the "Beginning",  "Let us make man in our image".  "Behold, the man is become as one of us."


I once also believed this verse was Trinitarian, but upon further study, discovered it is not.  The "us" and "our" references are heavenly hosts that were with God at the time of creation.  Virtually any Bible Commentary will confirm this.  They do not refer to the Triune God.

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