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8 years ago  ::  Aug 04, 2009 - 11:28AM #1
Tombrisson
Posts: 98

Interesting remarks on the Anglican/Episcopal board about the future of the Anglican Communion.


Also, Bishop Gene Robinson recently said he sees no future for a church that won't ordain women and gays.  


One issue I don't see mentioned in much of this is what is going on in Christian circles outside Europe and North America. Christians appear to be fighting for their existence (timescolumns.typepad.com/gledhill/) in much of the Muslim world. (Am I allowed to say that without being censored by Beliefnet?)


And those Christians fighting for their faith -- and their lives -- don't seem to be liberals (yet).


What does it mean? Tell me what you think.


 

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8 years ago  ::  Aug 04, 2009 - 7:47PM #2
kurnell
Posts: 309

If you take time to listen the bulk of African Anglicans,both liberal & conservative,their concern is not debates on sexuality.They are concerned with issues like Aids/HIV,poverty,war,ethnic fighting and starvation.++Tutu has insisted many times that these are the real challenges the Church should be facing.


The issue of Christian/Muslim fighting is a tricky one.In many cases, they are Christian/Muslim in name only.It often has more to do with criminal groupings fighting for power & control of the Black Market, who use the Christian/Muslim label for their own ends.


Pax


Jeffrey

Treasure your experience of God,however it comes to you.Remember that Christianity is not a notion but a way.
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8 years ago  ::  Aug 04, 2009 - 10:56PM #3
Roodog
Posts: 10,168

Aug 4, 2009 -- 11:28AM, Tombrisson wrote:


Interesting remarks on the Anglican/Episcopal board about the future of the Anglican Communion.


Also, Bishop Gene Robinson recently said he sees no future for a church that won't ordain women and gays.  


One issue I don't see mentioned in much of this is what is going on in Christian circles outside Europe and North America. Christians appear to be fighting for their existence (timescolumns.typepad.com/gledhill/) in much of the Muslim world. (Am I allowed to say that without being censored by Beliefnet?)


And those Christians fighting for their faith -- and their lives -- don't seem to be liberals (yet).


What does it mean? Tell me what you think.


 





I think that the Church on the frontiers, the missions and those under fire by rival religions are more vigorous and lively than those in the safety and comfort of the First World. They know what it means to count the costs and pay the price of discipleship. Their situation is like that of the first 300 years of the Church and the Protestant Reformation when believers literally laid down their lives for the faith.


I respectfully disagree with Bp Robinson, the most vigorous and fastest growing churches do not intentionally ordain gays. The TECies are going to have to be aggressive in inviting folks to church to get their buildings up to any semblance of a full capacity.

For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.

St. Thomas Aquinas

If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9
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8 years ago  ::  Aug 05, 2009 - 2:13AM #4
Enoch327
Posts: 12

I prefer to think of the Anglicans/Espiscopalians as "Baptist Light".  You know the Baptists split like fine wood.  Really easy.   My Gandfather's church split like five times in forty years.   I hate to see it happen.  Yet I feel that it may be the right thing to do, like a divorce.  More choices for people, more chances to reach people.  I hope it works out.  I hope they can divide up the property amicably.   Unlike the original divorce from the Roman Catholic Church. 


 


Enoch

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8 years ago  ::  Aug 05, 2009 - 10:18AM #5
Tombrisson
Posts: 98

One big question I have is the effect of the Islamization of Europe. The second-most popular baby's name in the UK last year was Muhammad, I've read.


No problem with Muslims -- just with those  who have not acquired the great liberal Western traditions, like democracy, basic freedoms (for men AND women). And they are legion.


I just don't believe the West has the spine anymore to uphold the values that nurtured it. Will first-world Christians be left with only the freedom to worship that Allah has decreed?


The Christians of the global south know what they're dealing with. Europe and North America have yet to wake up.

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8 years ago  ::  Aug 05, 2009 - 2:59PM #6
Roodog
Posts: 10,168

Aug 5, 2009 -- 10:18AM, Tombrisson wrote:


One big question I have is the effect of the Islamization of Europe. The second-most popular baby's name in the UK last year was Muhammad, I've read.


No problem with Muslims -- just with those  who have not acquired the great liberal Western traditions, like democracy, basic freedoms (for men AND women). And they are legion.


I just don't believe the West has the spine anymore to uphold the values that nurtured it. Will first-world Christians be left with only the freedom to worship that Allah has decreed?


The Christians of the global south know what they're dealing with. Europe and North America have yet to wake up.





One factor is the Muslim birth rate is much higher than the European, If that continues the Muslims will out breed the Europeans and become the majority. Europe is moribund more so in France than anywhere in Europe.


Two things are needed:


1. Vigorous education by the State with an emphasis on assimilation into the dominant culture.


2.A concerted effort to reform and renew the Church. This nominal religion is killing the Church and culture.

For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.

St. Thomas Aquinas

If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9
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8 years ago  ::  Aug 05, 2009 - 4:10PM #7
Bevo
Posts: 561

Roodog writes:


"2.  A concerted effort to reform and renew the Church. This nominal religion is killing the Church and culture."


Reform and renewal is taking place in Europe.  The process may be slow, but it is taking place.  Holy Trinity Brompton church in London is a highly energized, evangelical Anglican church.  The Vineyard movement has also had great success in planting several highly energized, evangelical churches in Europe.

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8 years ago  ::  Aug 05, 2009 - 8:24PM #8
kurnell
Posts: 309

Aug 5, 2009 -- 2:13AM, Enoch327 wrote:


I prefer to think of the Anglicans/Espiscopalians as "Baptist Light".  You know the Baptists split like fine wood.  Really easy.   My Gandfather's church split like five times in forty years.   I hate to see it happen.  Yet I feel that it may be the right thing to do, like a divorce.  More choices for people, more chances to reach people.  I hope it works out.  I hope they can divide up the property amicably.   Unlike the original divorce from the Roman Catholic Church. 


 


Enoch




I do not think division is desirable.Christ's prayer is continually that we be 'one'.The genius of the Anglican Church has been its ability to contain within it those of differing Churchman ship.They were united in the use of one prayerbook and meeting for eucharist around one table.


Each side in this debate has to stand back and have a good look at itself and its contribution to division. I live in Sydney and watch with horror at some of the things Peter Jensen is trying to do.The push for lay presidency at Eucharist is just as divisive as same sex commitment ceremonies.
It is so easy to see the faults in your opponent and be blind to those of ones own party.


I do not know what the answer to the present situation is, but division, to my mind, is not Christ's answer.


Pax


Jeffrey

Treasure your experience of God,however it comes to you.Remember that Christianity is not a notion but a way.
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8 years ago  ::  Aug 05, 2009 - 8:36PM #9
Bevo
Posts: 561

Might I suggest you change your view from "division" to "multiplication."  The truth is, to the extent the Church has "divided," its division has resulted in "multiplication."  Because the Church has "divided," the result is that it has reached far more persons with the Gospel.  Evidence?  William Seymour, a Methodist pastor, birthed the Pentecostal movement from the Azusa Street revival in the early 20th century.  100 years later, Pentecostalism is the fastest growing expression of the Christian faith in the world.


Division?  No, it's multiplication.


 

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8 years ago  ::  Aug 05, 2009 - 8:57PM #10
SeraphimR
Posts: 12,687

Aug 5, 2009 -- 2:59PM, Roodog wrote:


Aug 5, 2009 -- 10:18AM, Tombrisson wrote:


One big question I have is the effect of the Islamization of Europe. The second-most popular baby's name in the UK last year was Muhammad, I've read.


No problem with Muslims -- just with those  who have not acquired the great liberal Western traditions, like democracy, basic freedoms (for men AND women). And they are legion.


I just don't believe the West has the spine anymore to uphold the values that nurtured it. Will first-world Christians be left with only the freedom to worship that Allah has decreed?


The Christians of the global south know what they're dealing with. Europe and North America have yet to wake up.





One factor is the Muslim birth rate is much higher than the European, If that continues the Muslims will out breed the Europeans and become the majority. Europe is moribund more so in France than anywhere in Europe.


Two things are needed:


1. Vigorous education by the State with an emphasis on assimilation into the dominant culture.


2.A concerted effort to reform and renew the Church. This nominal religion is killing the Church and culture.




I think that Europeans need to have more babies.

“So long as there is squalor in the world, those obsessed with social justice feel obliged not only to live in it themselves but also to spread it evenly.”

http://takimag.com/article/the_ugly_truth_theodore_dalrymple
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