Jun 30, 2009 -- 9:54PM, Roodog wrote:

Hello my friends, Baptist and otherwise,

I am starting a new thread on the matter of justificaton of sinners unto salvation. Please share your thoughts.

Since we are all sinners----condemned as transgressors of GOD's Law, The Decalogue has no capability to "Justify" anyone.(In the OT, the "Sacrificial/Ceremonials laws had the TEMPORARY, (Shadow role of being Christ's substitute for that purpose) It can only act as a "mirror" and focus one on the only source for justification before the FATHER------Jesus, "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"----Whose "ATONING BLOOD" provides one with the "Robe of Righteousness"/Our needed-----"Justification". 

Here are verses which deal with the subject: Justification: Rom. 4:25; 5:16,18;   Justify: Rom3:30; Gal.3:8;  (Ex.23:7)  Justified: Matt.12:17; Acts 13:39; Rom2:13; 3:20,24,28; 5:1,9; 8:30;  1Cor.4:4; 6:11;  Gal.2:16-17; :11,24;  Titus 3:7; James2:21,24-25 (Eph.2:10, is one's professed "faith" walking in those "ordained good works"?)  Justifieth: Rom.8:33.

Jul 1, 2009 -- 10:38PM, kbsjhd wrote:

I find the idea we are all sinners slightly ridiculous. Assuming  God created everything, and if there is a God, that Being is everything, ergo created everything, why would that being do something so treacherous as create everyone as sinners? That Being could not by definition, create anything except perfection, and such a Being is, again by definition, incapable of treachery. Why such a strong need among Christians that we are anything but perfect, being created by a perfect Being? Why the need to feel unworthy, small, evil, impure?

I am not sure that Scripture would convince you, not knowing your stance on the Bible.

So I will ask you some questions that you need to answer to yourself:

Have you ever lied to anyone?

Have you ever taken what did not belong to you?

Have you ever been so angry at someone that you wanted to harm him or her?

Have you ever been envious of another's good fortune or wanted to have what they had.

Have you ever placed anything or anyone above your love of God?

Have you ever robbed God of the time He wants to spend with you?

Have you ever had sexual desires for one to whom you are not married?

Have you ever failed to show your parents the proper love and respect that is due to them as parents?

Roughly speaking, have you ever broken any of the Ten Commandments in thought, word or deed?

I have, this is why I am a sinner in need of forgiveness and salvation.

Well I am a sinner who was saved by Grace alone.

But the problem I see with many is that they do not tie salvation with Righteousness.  A number of people think they can be saved and live like the devil and it is okay.

But salvation by faith saves us from the control of sin.  When we are justified by Grace then we will turn from sin to live in righteousness. Not to save ourselves but because we are saved and in gratitude to GOD we will walk in his paths. To not do so shows that you are not saved.

kbsjhad, you appear to be unsure about the existence God. This fact makes it clear to me why you would doubt that all humans are sinners. It is not possible for any of us to convince you of the existence of God, for only His Holy Spirit can do this for you. I know that, for myself, I have never doubted His existence, because of my Mom. She never told me a whole lot about God, except that He exists, and He is eternal, and He is perfect in all ways, and He loves us. I was able to believe this because of the way she lived: she loved people, helped them whenever she could, and there was no doubt that she loved God. The main thing was that she never once told me a lie, so I never had any reason to doubt anything she would tell me. And so, as I grew up, I was able to see God working in my life. I am not saying that my Mom was perfect, nobody is. But she did depend on God for salvation, and for guidance in her life, so I learned to depend on Him too.

God wants what is best for us, always. He knows what is best for us, because He created us. He loves us more than we can understand. Yes, it is true that every single human being rebels against Him, because our nature was changed after Adam and Eve disobeyed God the first time, and now we can't change ourselves. But God can change us if we let Him. We have to make the choice, though. He doesn't force His will on us. It is like when we get a deadly illness, we can't get well by ourselves, the doctor has to help us, but we have to come to him. Same thing with God. He will not refuse to help us, but we have to come to Him and admit that we are sin-sick.

My friend, keep your mind open about God. If you are not sure there really is a God, go ahead and ask Him. Keep asking until you get an answer. Sometimes it may take a while. But if you really want to know, you will get your answer, and it will change your life forever. If I have misunderstood your position, please forgive me. It is just that I know that God is well worth knowing, and I want that for you.  Then, when you recognize that your life is not all that it could be, God can help you.

Blessings

I can remember a time in my life when I think nothing made more sense to me than this doctrine.  Absolutely nothing was going right with me then: I was in a place where I could see no good in myself and actually no hope for myself.  At the time, I was hearing a regular diet of Calvinist doctrine from DJ Kennedy's sermons on the car radio while driving home from work, and I guess some of that stuff sank in.  I thought of times in my life when all was well and it seemed I could do no wrong, and yet reflected that there were also periods in my life where I could do no right (even while trying), if that makes any sense.  In my mind, it just suddenly seemed one day that the grace of God was determining a lot more than I had thought before: it was setting seasons of my-not-doing-anything-wrong and then of my not-doing-anything-right for a purpose quite beyond me.

It seemed to me at that point that there must be a justification that rests on faith alone, because we have times when faith is all there is, times when it's the only good thing about us and also the only possible basis for anything to improve.  Perhaps that's as much to say that it preceeds action or works without which faith is "dead" as James' epistle says.  But good action cannot proceed without some measure of faith, I think.  I believe that in the Presbyterian mind, there is an ideal where good works can flow unceasingly from us simply out of the gratitude for having received so much: to wit, everything necessary for salvation through Christ.  The Bhagavad-gita says somewhere, "A man's substance is his faith, what his faith is, he is." 

If nothing else, if this was all just a load of bad argumentation, it can be a powerful mindset to exist on and get you through a lot of depressing mornings.  But I suppose, on the other hand, Catholics will be quick to point out that the mindset could just as easily give rise to a "Chosen Frozen."