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Switch to Forum Live View The Bishop and Chastity
6 years ago  ::  May 19, 2009 - 9:56AM #11
Tmarie64
Posts: 5,277

Hmmm... I've never held up the holiness of MY job, then got busted for either raping children or hiding the rapists.


Don't you DARE compare what those perverts did to what the average person thinks and does.


Because the average person doesn't even CONSIDER diddling children.  The average person wants child rapists PROSECUTED, not promoted.

James Thurber - "It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers."
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6 years ago  ::  May 21, 2009 - 7:59PM #12
Mareczku
Posts: 2,220

Thanks Angpuppy.  That gave me a lot of food for thought.  You always have good comments.  And thanks too Tmarie, your comment surely gave me food for thought too.  The Church (& bishops) need people like you to keep them honest. 


 


Peace - Mareczku 

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6 years ago  ::  May 22, 2009 - 12:51AM #13
angpuppy
Posts: 520

May 19, 2009 -- 9:56AM, Tmarie64 wrote:


Hmmm... I've never held up the holiness of MY job, then got busted for either raping children or hiding the rapists.


Don't you DARE compare what those perverts did to what the average person thinks and does.


Because the average person doesn't even CONSIDER diddling children.  The average person wants child rapists PROSECUTED, not promoted.




I had started responding to this, but then found that in charity, I did not know what to say.  I certainly did not want to make this a personal battle and I did not want to let my emotions get carried with me.


Then yesterday I read a news article about that report in Ireland - very tragic, and very frustrating.  I spent a lot of time thinking about my reaction and the mixed feelings.  I thought of my reaction to the fact that some months ago, it came out that the man who taught my sister to play the guitar was arrested for having 500 videos of child pornography.  After he was arrested, his wife called my mom on the phone.  She was in tears.  I wasn't terribly close to him and his family, but I'd still consider the family a friend. 


Its very easy to read stories about molesters and just spew with hatred when we have not had a relationship with that person.  They're abstract.  Its especially easy when we already have some resentment toward that person or what that person represents.  But at least for me, when it is someone I care for or an organization, like the Church, that I value, emotional reaction is a mixture.  You experience things that just don't compute.  You don't know really how to process it at first.


Now perhaps I'm just a very bizzarre person.  As a child, I was told to pray for all sinners and that I was to forgive everyone.  I spent much of my time praying for murderers and rapists.  I even asked my teacher why I couldn't pray for the devil.   Its just inside of me.  When Columbine happened, I prayed for the students who were victims as well as the students who did that terrible thing.  I prayed for their families and was disturbed that so many people were offended that some people were praying for them and putting up crosses for them.


It doesn't mean I don't believe in justice.  I believe though that there is good anger and bad anger.  There is a longing for justice that seeks ultimately to teach lessons to perpetrators and to seek to teach by example, to give consequences and to prevent crimes from happening again.  But there is also the bad anger that cannot be satisfied.  It seeks only to harm and harm continually.  This anger tends to come because we inwardly know that we truly lived in a just world, this wouldn't have happened.  Thus we look to punishment or that is revenge as a way not to protect things for the future, but as a way to undo or heal the damage down which revenge doesn't do. 


In fact, I believe the more a person holds onto those feelings, the more harm those feelings do to that person.  When I see victims of anything insisting on the death penalty or some other vengance, what I see is them hurting themselves and falsely believing that their wrath can be satisfied in that.   Part of them knows that nothing can satisfy them, but they're still going about it in that direction which I think is a fruitless direction.


Forgiveness doesn't mean letting the person go.  Forgiveness is recognizing that something was stolen from you and that person owes you.  You recognize though that they can't repay you.  So you forgive them their debt.  You let the past go in forgiveness.  But in regards to the future, there is still temporal punishment, like penance if you will, that is to teach them self discipline to help them refrain from doing it in the future, or that if they can't, keeps them from harming further people.  Temporal punishment is not about the debt which is about the past, it is rather about the future.  Hense the Church teaches that we still go through Purgatory for our already forgiven sins.  Are sins are such that we can't pay the debt.  Hense Christ alone died to pay our debts.  And as such when we look to forgiving others, we must rely on Him, and look to Him.


In regards to your "How dare you compare?" ... I suppose I will risk saying part of what I wanted to say, though it may come across as harsh.  Our world is not so much more innocent than what is happening in the Church.  We live in a society that upholds that mothers have a "right" to murder their children provided their children have not yet been born.  Every woman who has had an abortion is a murderer.  Every person who helped her to murder her child is an accomplice to murder.  Every Catholic politician who votes pro choice is covering up murder even more boldly than the bishops for unlike the bishops, they actually say "What?  That's not murder"  Where as you're only talking about bishops giving lip service to it being wrong, but their actions contradicting their lipservice.  Meanwhile we have a Church that does nothing to punish either the bishops who moved around priests, nor the Catholic politicans who vote pro choice.  And meanwhile a large number of Catholics voted for a pro abortion president.  This is all murder in a very real sense that we're guilty of in one capacity or another.  And then one has to ask, which is the worse crime:  murdering the innocent child or raping the innocent child?


I don't think actually being guilty of murder is what we think it is when we're judging the abstract stranger.  I don't think being guilty of rape or pedofilia is what we think it is when we're judging the abstract stranger.  A stranger is only a rapist or a murderer.  These words replace their personhood.  Hense abortion has made me more empathetic to the mother who commits infanticide and drowns her children.  I think people are far too unforgiving. 


Again it does not mean that we should not seek after justice or build for a better world.  But we must be patient and not throw out the baby with the bath water. This is about the sinfulness of man, not about the structure of a Church system. 

So obviously there's injustice going on in the Church.  My point is that it has nothing to do with the validity of the hierachy, the magistrium or the sacraments.  If we want to fix anything we need to focus on hearts, not on abstract structures.  This means pray for the conversion of hearts, definitely call them on, but in all calling people on, make sure it is out of love and charity.  Don't just send them a letter telling them how horrible of a person they are and that you hope they go to Hell.  That is a fruitless exercise.

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6 years ago  ::  May 22, 2009 - 8:44PM #14
Mareczku
Posts: 2,220

You said a lot there Angpuppy.  I read too of what happened in Ireland.  I don't know why all these kids had to be abused.  But it made me think that in the Church not all people are seen as being equal.  Some people are seen as better than others.  So destitute orphans were abused, aborigines in Australia and native peoples in Canada and the US were abused.  Gay kids were used to satisfy the lust of some in the clergy and then the Church turned around and told them that they were disordered.  So it seems that if a group of people were seen as inferior then they can be subjected to physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse.  And the bishops and hierarchy just covered it all up because the victims were not worth as much as those who abused them.  Some people that covered it up got promoted and some who complained about the abuse and tried to make things better were blackballed because they were not "loyal."  One of the terrible things to me about abortion is that it takes away the child's humanity.  How many innocent kids had part of their humanity taken away by clergy and bishops?  I could never have believed that such things would happen in my Church but sadly I have woken up and it isn't pleasant. 


 


Peace - Mareczku 

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5 years ago  ::  May 24, 2009 - 4:51PM #15
Tamayo
Posts: 236

May 22, 2009 -- 12:51AM, angpuppy wrote:


This is about the sinfulness of man, not about the structure of a Church system.    So obviously there's injustice going on in the Church.  My point is that it has nothing to do with the validity of the hierachy, the magistrium or the sacraments.




 


If it is indeed about the "sinfulness" of humans, then I have to wonder why the Church doesn't make a point if talking about that as some sort of internal/external dialogue for how the systemic child abuse happens. A church that admits its priests, bishops, cardinals, and everyone else involved are HUMAN, and subject to all the same desires and passions that their laymen congregations are, may help to dissuade some of the anger over the abuses.


However, that's not how the Church as an organization of humans works. Instead, it invokes God and Jesus and the pope to demarkate its authority over the lay congregation. Well, with authority comes responsibility, and here in the US at least, it also comes with accountability. People who claim to be God's chosen to dole out sacraments as they see fit are (and should be) held to a much higher standard than the average joe.


 


The way I see it, either the Church admits that it is not perfect or all-knowing, or it takes responsibility for the abuses that its hierarchy hides on a daily basis. It has done neither, and is therefore not deserving of the respect it demands from its congregations.

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