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Switch to Forum Live View Thankyou, Prop 8 Mor(m)ons
6 years ago  ::  Apr 01, 2009 - 11:57AM #1
BillThinks4Himself
Posts: 3,207

When I joined the Church, back in '82, nobody would have accused Mormons of being leftists but the Church was definitely center right.  It remained as much through the mid-80s.  Most Mormons I knew of were staunch Republicans, but they were careful not to buy into the NeoCon tendencies of some of Reagan's brood.  Ronald Reagan, himself, wasn't the NeoCon they thought he was, and many LDS people I knew of were loathe to "go all the way" with the Republican Party.


Sometime in the late 80s, things shifted.  Even as Ezra Taft Benson took the leadership - in a much softer form than the Elder Benson who hated Civil Rights and told BYU students to show some "integrity" by refusing financial aid - the Church was just beginning to jump on the Republican bandwagon.  During my 6 1/2 years at BYU, I watched the great shift to the right, often in frustration, sometimes in horror.  I saw professors get the ax, some of them ex'd on the way out.  Right-wing politics got thicker and more a part of daily life.  It was weird.


It continued, even after I left BYU for Florida, one of the original states of the Confederacy.  Things have got to get pretty right-wing for Mormons to even come close to rednecks in the "yeehah" parade.  I don't live in South Florida, which is New York City transplanted to Miami and Ft. Lauderdale.  I don't live in North Florida, which is Gomer Pyle country.  I live in Central Florida - between Tampa and Orlando - which is the landing strip for midwesterners.  I'm used to bickerings between nice midwesterners and displaced rednecks, with the latter flying their rebel flags and holding their klan rallies.  These are not folks the Church should be seeking approval from.


But since George W. Bush's takeover in 2000, and spiking through the 9/11 aftermath - when all things right became all things American - the Church has jumped on the bandwagon with reckless abandon.  Somewhere between the "real Mormons" who took over BYU and the "real Americans" who have taken over the Church, a reckoning has been in order.  Every tree shall be judged by the fruit it bears.  In this case, with circumstances on their side, the right wing of the Church has made its move.  Under its leadership, the Church has taken on an imperialist spirit, finding its own axis of evil with evangelicals and big-money Republicans.


And these folks have managed to steer the Church right off a cliff.


The "Mormon moment," which began with tolerance and the beginnings of acceptance from people of goodwill, and which spiked with the Olympics, has been squandered on a political version of Zion's Camp.  Thinking it would get this big pat on the head - from concerned citizens everywhere - the Church has plunged its fortunes into Prop 8.  But instead of being cast as a kind of cultural messiah, the Church has knit itself a cape made from leftover rebel flags.  The Church is now considered a fellow traveler with the bigots of the right wing.  People now link Mormons with evangelicals.  And as this newfound attention goes south, the Church is being distinguished as "evangelicals cut from the weirdest cloth."


Thanks, Prop 8 mor(m)ons.  Thank you for doing one thing right: You have created a new crisis that will weed your kind out.  I suspect that the future for the Church will not sound like something out of a John Birch newsletter.  It will involve a kind of inside-job of demoting, reassigning, transfering and otherwise setting at arms length the kind of idiot fascist fringe that got the Church into this mess.  Every Custer must eventually meet its Bighorn.


I can't imagine a better testing ground than this.  Thanks, Prop h8ters.  You performed magnificently.  Enjoy the ride down.

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6 years ago  ::  Apr 01, 2009 - 1:14PM #2
UwishUwereMe
Posts: 2,352

Bill, very interesting perspective.  One thing I take issue with is this.  I am going to try to make as much sense as I can. 


 


I don't need to re-hash who I am, most posters know what I am about.  Some it confuses, some it angers, some think I am in denial, and some actually respect me and just don't give a sh*t about the rest.


Coming from my back ground, I am indiferent about gay marriage.  If they wana get married be my guest, if they can't why, scream b*tch, and whine about it?  I am getting so sick of people kvetching about prop 8 I want to move to a far away place where no gay activists, no NeoCons, no leftist socialists, no rednecks, no nobodies can find me! 


Here's what I think.  I like probably 14.5 million out of the total active and inactive LDS really have bigger and better things to worry about.  I having experienced the "gay lifestyle" first hand see a large group of gays as thinking if only gay marriage exists people would more easily accept GLBT people.  WRONG!  Also many GLBT people believe if they could only be married it would take alot of stress out of the relationship!  WRONG!  So gay marriage is not a cure for societies ills, nor is it a cure for the relationship blues.  Now I realize there are many more GLBT that want the fundamental rights and basic necessities of what legal marriage has to offer.  BUT, why does it have to be call "marriage?"  If the vernacular is going to be the flashpoint of contention, why not give all the same rights under a modified name?  It's call COMPROMISE. 


Now, I neither supported nor protested prop 8.  I really have bigger fish to fry.  I am a disabled ex- military officer, with a girlfriend and sh*t stack of bills and social obligations of my own. 


What REALLY dropped my ass into the frying pan is that MY TITHE money was WASTED on such a rediculous thing as prop8.  It could have gone to so many better uses.  Not to mention that gay marriage in CA has been flip flopping since the 1940's and maybe before.  So, why make the LDS Church the "bad guys" and waste money and piss around when it's not our job to be in  the middle of this.  It is a political process not a theological one.  The thing the church is feeling is the sting of being burned politically.  If you stick your willy in a hornets nest, expect to feel the burning pain and embarassment that comes along with it for a while. 


The church has every right to offer Proclaimations on the Family, advice to legislators, letters to the Editor, etc.  But if it wants to be the 3RD political party in the US, then they damn well better be able to hack it.  If you can't stand the heat get the hell out of the kitchen!


As far as attacking members of the Church, everyday common members, like myself, not cool.  NOT COOL.  The church is true, the fundamental basics of the Church is true.     What I believe are the basic requirements to being a Christian.  Accept Christ as your savior.  Trust the Bible and BoM stories testifying of his divine mission. 


Other than that, the Church has crossed the line of the seperation between Church and State. 


And, Bill, President Benson would have SERIOUS reservations about that I am sure! 

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6 years ago  ::  Apr 02, 2009 - 6:45PM #3
Desimans
Posts: 280

It has long been said that politics makes for strange bedfellows.  I will not be among the "faithful" who jump into bed with Jerry Falwell and his ilk.  These are the same fools who have been calling LDS a satanic cult for years.  I am amazed that such a silly issue as whether or not gays should be able to marry each other has caused such a ruckus.  I am old enough to remember the stupidity of the past when interracial marriage was a crime; this is just more of the same nonsense.   I personally don't care if a person wants to marry his car, its none of my business.

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6 years ago  ::  Apr 02, 2009 - 9:51PM #4
j_Rob
Posts: 506

Bingo, Desimans.


This is the old "the enemy of my enemy is my friend, even if that friend is really my enemy" bit.  I am not LDS, but I have a certain affinity for them and a family full of conservative evangelicals that I can't stand. 


What is so nutty about all of this is that, if you read press releases or statements from some evangelical organizations, they will always have some bit in there somewhere about how, even though they are working with the LDS Church, they still don't agree with LDS theology and want to make that perfectly clear.  They applaud your efforts with one hand, but with the other tell you you're sub-Christian (at best) or a brainwashing cult (at worst). 


By getting involved in politics (something the LDS Church has not been known for in the past), the Church has been lumped in with the "Religious Right", a group that can't stand the LDS to begin with.  If I were a rank and file LDS, I would be outraged, regardless of my views on GLBT issues. 


j_Rob  

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6 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2009 - 12:34AM #5
bytebear
Posts: 1,451

Bill, I don't get your logic. Prop 8 passed primarily by a large black democratic turnout.  Blacks vote overwhelmingly for the Democratic Party and they voted overwhelmingly for prop 8.  Gay rights may be a partisan issue, but gay marriage clearly isn't.

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6 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2009 - 9:45AM #6
UwishUwereMe
Posts: 2,352

Desimans said:


It has long been said that politics makes for strange bedfellows.  I will not be among the "faithful" who jump into bed with Jerry Falwell and his ilk.  These are the same fools who have been calling LDS a satanic cult for years.  I am amazed that such a silly issue as whether or not gays should be able to marry each other has caused such a ruckus.  I am old enough to remember the stupidity of the past when interracial marriage was a crime; this is just more of the same nonsense.   I personally don't care if a person wants to marry his car, its none of my business.


 


UWUWM said:


I would marry my car.  It's dependable, reliable, comfortable, it sings to me and if I don't like what it sings I can change the channel.  It's warm when I need it to be warm, cool when I need it to be cool.  It has all wheel drive so I can take it anywhere and it doesn't need to spend an hour in the bathroom beforehand.  I can sell it and not go to jail for that.  It never disagrees with me and it doesn't talk back.  However the nav system can get a little aggrivating, but I can shut it off and not have to listen to it!


My Pilot, the perfect mate!

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6 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2009 - 7:49PM #7
moksha8088
Posts: 4,984

Apr 2, 2009 -- 6:45PM, Desimans wrote:


It has long been said that politics makes for strange bedfellows.  I will not be among the "faithful" who jump into bed with Jerry Falwell and his ilk.  These are the same fools who have been calling LDS a satanic cult for years.  I am amazed that such a silly issue as whether or not gays should be able to marry each other has caused such a ruckus.  I am old enough to remember the stupidity of the past when interracial marriage was a crime; this is just more of the same nonsense.   I personally don't care if a person wants to marry his car, its none of my business.




Keep on being the voice of reason at your local level Desimans.


 


 


Bill's thoughtful threads sure help put ideas in perspective. 


Is it not ironic that the Gays we have offended are the people who would have spoken out if we were being persecuted?  It is the Evangelicals who would be doing the persecuting.


.


 

Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
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6 years ago  ::  Apr 06, 2009 - 9:58AM #8
UwishUwereMe
Posts: 2,352

Actually, MOK, I have to raise an issue.  The gays that we "put off" during Prop 8 would most likely NOT defend "us" or our religion if we had been or were being persecuted.  The gay community has been pretty anti mormon since there was a "gay" community. Our conservative stance on religion, and our non acceptance of the gay life style, has been the bone of contention for gays for a very long time. 


So unless I read your post wrong, which is easily done by me, I don't think the gays we pissed off in prop 8, would ever come to our defense, for any reason. 


Mormons truely have a very interesting niche, still not fully accepted by anyone.  I don't think the Community of Christ did themselves any favors by joining various christian coalitions or fully and openly accepting gays and lesbians as ministers, and other such callings. 


It's really true you cannot not stand with one foot on one foot over here and another foot over there, eventually you have to pick one or the other.  The Church picked the right wing establishment.  I HIGHLY doubt that it will suddenly change course.  We either continue with it or with out it.     

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6 years ago  ::  Apr 06, 2009 - 8:40PM #9
moksha8088
Posts: 4,984

Uwish, I think there is always a detectable difference between a group that does not embrace homosexuality because of their beliefs and a group that actively takes part limiting the rights of Homosexuals.  I am confident that Homosexuals can distinguish between the two.  Many religious groups do not embrace homosexuality, but also do not lead the fray against them.  In this regard we have aligned ourselves with the same "religious" hate groups that also hate us.  A situation that creates an "enemies of our enemies are also our enemies"  cannot be good.

Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
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6 years ago  ::  Apr 07, 2009 - 10:07AM #10
UwishUwereMe
Posts: 2,352

MOKSHA Said:


 


Uwish, I think there is always a detectable difference between a group that does not embrace homosexuality because of their beliefs and a group that actively takes part limiting the rights of Homosexuals.  I am confident that Homosexuals can distinguish between the two.  Many religious groups do not embrace homosexuality, but also do not lead the fray against them.  In this regard we have aligned ourselves with the same "religious" hate groups that also hate us.  A situation that creates an "enemies of our enemies are also our enemies"  cannot be good.


 


UWISH:


 


Mok, I totally agree with you, there.  But from knowing SOME GLBT people who are gracious toward the LDS Church and DO value the many good things that come out of it, they are still leary due to it's stance that there is this "gay agenda" to "destroy" the family. 


I agree with you, that the church still put it self in a compromising position.  We are now aligned with those that hate and persecute us.  It kind of reminds me of WWII.  I wasn't there, but I know from much study, that when German soldiers would invade a Russian or Polish camp, they would tell the people they captured: "Either join forces with us, or we kill you."  We are now like the captured Russians.  We are aligned with the "enemy" in an attempt to flush the allies.


One thing the Church should have considered before prop 8 was an old Irish saying:


"Tis better to be a good enemy than a bad friend."

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